no neutral wire in lighting circuit - is this dangerous?

[rick_0774]

Hello, first post here, searched on the internet and not found an answer to this. Have taken down a light fitting to replace with new, one of the wires seems to be a live (red) and earth (unsleeved) have taken back the grey sleeving to check if there is a neutral wire in there but doesn't seem to be. Should this be replaced with wiring with a neutral or is it perfectly safe? attached picture, the wire with no neutral is on the left - thanks

 

[Fleeting]

It is dependent on how the circuit is configured the cable you note with no neutral doesn't need one it is just a live conductor with an earth (cpc). Do you know how to reconnect all those cables.

 

[kerching]

Please tell us that you took a photo before you disconnected the wires AND that you made a note of what went where, PLEASE!
If not then you have quite possibly opened up a whole world of pain

Lack of a black wire ( neutral,possibly) is not an issue.singles wiring was common in late 70/early 80s

 

[Andy™]

why do you think it should have a neutral?

 

[ProDave]

Yes PLEASE tell us you took photographs, drew some diagrams and numbered the cables so you have a record of how it was all connected BEFORE you disconnected anything.

If the answer is no, best get an electrician round to untangle it work it out and re connect it, he will do that a lot quicker than anyone on a forum.

And until that is done you will have no lighting in much of the house.

There are a whole host of situations where a single red and earth could be used, it is not that common but nothing "wrong" with it.

And another hint, don't assume ALL the black wires you see are "neutral" I would guarantee one of them won't be. But which one.........

 

[rick_0774]

Thanks for the quick replies, as long as it's safe, this was the main concern. Yes, I took pics before it was disconnected and fortunately the fitting is right near the loft access and you can see where all the wiring is going to. Will be getting an electrician in to fit the light as we will probably have it relocated - thanks again

 

[rick_0774]

Yes PLEASE tell us you took photographs, drew some diagrams and numbered the cables so you have a record of how it was all connected BEFORE you disconnected anything.

If the answer is no, best get an electrician round to untangle it work it out and re connect it, he will do that a lot quicker than anyone on a forum.

And until that is done you will have no lighting in much of the house.

There are a whole host of situations where a single red and earth could be used, it is not that common but nothing "wrong" with it.

And another hint, don't assume ALL the black wires you see are "neutral" I would guarantee one of them won't be. But which one.........

when you say 'don't assume all black wires are neutral' do you mean when they are used as 'switched live'? thanks

 

[rick_0774]

why do you think it should have a neutral?

just assumed there would be a neutral wire, can't seem to find any reference online to just live and earth wire, do you know what this sort of cable this would be called? thanks

 

[kerching]

you know what this sort of cable this would be called? thanks

6241Y

Some jumped up zero to hero will probably be along shortly to correct me

 

[rick_0774]

6241Y

Some jumped up zero to hero will probably be along shortly to correct me

nice one - thanks, been looking all day to see what kind of wire it was

 

[Geoff1946]

My semi-retirement job was maintenance at a care home, where a new wing was added.
For some reason the electrical contractor loved that stuff and used it for most of the lighting circuits. There were two way circuits in each room, intermediate switches on the corridor, and escape lights. I can vouch that the practice doesn't make for easy circuit tracing for faults or modifications !

 

[kerching]

They also,did one black and earth and another couple without the Earth
Another version with an insulated earth and the sheath the same colour as the conductor so, black and green or red and green
Mid 60s to mid 70s
Quite often leads to a borrowed neutral on the landing 2 way

 

[UNG]

Quite common to use 6241Y red and earth and 6181Y black when doing council house rewires round the Liverpool area back in the 70's and 80's with live looped at the switch rather than at lighting point. Then there was also the 6242Y twin red and earth for wiring switch drops on 3 plate lighting circuits

 

[Bob23]

Thanks for the quick replies, as long as it's safe, this was the main concern. Yes, I took pics before it was disconnected and fortunately the fitting is right near the loft access and you can see where all the wiring is going to. Will be getting an electrician in to fit the light as we will probably have it relocated - thanks again

If this is loft and you know where the cables go, easy enough to pull them through the ceiling and run some t+e to the ceiling point.

I’ve not done electrical for a few years, anyone know if you’re allowed to use screw type joint boxes in hidden areas? Under floorboards etc? Or is that not a thing now and they need to be Wago etc

 

[kerching]

screw type joint boxes in hidden areas? Under floorboards etc? Or is that not a thing now and they need to be Wago etc

Need to be maintenance free


On a side note "3 plate lighting circuits"
Where does this expression come from?...
Serious question

 

[Fleeting]

It was the number of terminals on the plate of the rose or batten. Two plate had two terminals three plate has three one being the loop hence three plate, ignoring any earth terminals.

 

[rick_0774]

Quite common to use 6241Y red and earth and 6181Y black when doing council house rewires round the Liverpool area back in the 70's and 80's with live looped at the switch rather than at lighting point. Then there was also the 6242Y twin red and earth for wiring switch drops on 3 plate lighting circuits

Thanks, just to confirm, the single core runs from the light fitting to the landing switch which is 2 way and can be switched on/off downstairs, from what's been posted on here it sounds like it's safe, thanks again

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

nice one - thanks, been looking all day to see what kind of wire it was

Still available for use today (in its modern colour variants)..
Brown+E
Blue+E

 

[Coll]

They also,did one black and earth and another couple without the Earth
Another version with an insulated earth and the sheath the same colour as the conductor so, black and green or red and green
Mid 60s to mid 70s
Quite often leads to a borrowed neutral on the landing 2 way

...it's been quite the learning curve from apprenticeship, lead sheathed, (sheath bits made for an excellent mouse !) vulcanized, single core(s) 2 core without earth MICC et al, Conduit an and hallelujah PVC conduit, dry lining boxes, weaning from Wylex and MK products, today range of option impressive, challenging and sometimes dubious...

 

[Coll]

Hello, first post here, searched on the internet and not found an answer to this. Have taken down a light fitting to replace with new, one of the wires seems to be a live (red) and earth (unsleeved) have taken back the grey sleeving to check if there is a neutral wire in there but doesn't seem to be. Should this be replaced with wiring with a neutral or is it perfectly safe? attached picture, the wire with no neutral is on the left - thanksView attachment 15167

aye, a sight to make some summoned sparky, turn on his heels....be back later...