No risk assessment or asbestos survey. Is this a norm for an electrical company in England?

[Andy_Dandy]

Hi Guys!

More than a year ago I joined an electrical company in England. I had no training but I quickly picked up all requited skills while working with my boss.

In the last year we completed a lot of domestic and commercial jobs. We never had a risk assessment or an asbestos survey (except 2 big jobs, in one an asbestos survey was mentioned and in the second I was shown a copy of it). We are often working with builders who don't have high regard for health and safety.

A while ago we were working with a builders team at a domestic site and I came across the wall which looked like it contained asbestos. I noticed it after it had been chased in multiple locations. I raised this with the main builder and he said that they don't have an asbestos survey and they are not sure is this is the asbestos containing material. The client later said that he received a confirmation from the asbestos surveyor that there were no asbestos in that wall. 

Recently the company I work for paid for me to do an asbestos awareness training course. I completed it and when I said to my boss that based on having completed the training I had learned that 90% of UK properties build before 2000 contain asbestos and the regulation stipulate that I should refuse work on site until I see an asbestos survey. He replied that this is simply health and safety people exaggerating things and I should ignore this. Also he told me that the key is in the name of the course it is an asbestos 'awareness' course and it is about you being aware of asbestos. 

His answer confused me because he asked me to ignore the training which he just paid for. 

Is this an electrical trade standard completing a domestic/industrial project without a risk assessment and an asbestos survey?

I would be grateful if you could let me know your views on mentioned above working conditions. 

 

[Sharpend]

Ok so you have been on an asbestos awareness course now if something terrible should happen to you in years to come who do you think will be responsible? Your boss or you? Remember he's done his part and paid for you to be made aware of asbestos, what you do with it is up to you??

The ignorance that your boss shows is about right for 'bosses' as they no longer have to work in the environment and are only concerned with profit. 

If you are not happy I don't suppose your boss is about to change his stance so where does that leave you? 

 

[Essex1]

It is law that a RA must take place orior to starting work. Now this of course can be done in your head but for a re-wire or something similer it really should be documented. 

It is also law that every employer must have a register of any ACMs that are there. As soon as a donestic property becomes a re-wire then your boss or the client (I am not 100% sure who the responsibility lies with) must be sure this happens. 

Some buildings will have an asbestos register but this is not suitable to carry out intrusive works under. A R&D is what is required. 

This should all be covered under CDM regulations I belive. 

 

[switch10]

For nearly all my commercial customers they always ask for a risk assessment and method statement as well as cdm plan and show me a copy of asbestos register 

 

[Evans Electric]

Most small builders , in my experience , ignore the presence of asbestos , mainly due the cost of paying for the tests .   What you are experiencing is not unusual .

I've seen attitudes get really angry when someone says the "A" word.

 

[rapparee]

Most small builders , in my experience , ignore the presence of asbestos , mainly due the cost of paying for the tests .   What you are experiencing is not unusual .

I've seen attitudes get really angry when someone says the "A" word.

We have some asbestos in our place but it's sprayed over and undisturbed so it is deemed to be ok.

Work was being carried out on a different part of the building where we suspected asbestos was present, we raised this with the boss the facilities manager. The building contractor who was subbed in to do work with us piped up that he was registered for asbestos. WTGrape that means, we ended up finishing up half day on a friday and the building contractor sent a 16yr old in with a plastic bag to clean the place up. It was despicable the building contractor wouldn't go near it himself but he'd send a young mug in with no ppe or training. 

OP your boss is a bit of a cowboy, the fact that you are working as an electrician without any training rings alarm bells if you ask me.  

 

[Evans Electric]

Andy Dandy   if you see asbestos being disturbed ...............(.what do you think  I'm about to say )    ?

Is it :-

(1)  Dash over to it and take deep breaths ?

(2)  Beat a hasty retreat  & report it to H&S .

Companies exposing workers to asbestos can have the proverbial book thrown at them .

I knew two people who died from exposure to asbestos ........the small guy has to make a stand  even when those around you are taking the pistolero ...those who can just look at the white , fibre board type material and pronounce it to be safe are the ones to beware of .

 

[binky]

your awareness course is correct, but the levels of asbestos danger is pretty low in most materials. EG tollet cisterns, it may contain asbestos but to expose yourself to it you would basically need a grinder. What you really need to look out for is lagging and pipe insulation, and the sprayed concrete materials. Danger comes when turned to dust by drilling etc etc.

Have to say your employer sounds like a prat.The fact you are working as an untrained electrician says it all. It has to be said many builders have similar attitude to asbestos 'cos they've worked with it for years and aren't dead yet'. They have a point, if asbestos is so dangerous why aren't there more deaths? The fact is most of the asbestos materials encountered are low level hazards and they have 'got away with it', but their working practices are still unacceptable. My advice to you is use facemasks when encountering any form of dust, good ones.

 

[Revved Up Sparky]

Most small builders , in my experience , ignore the presence of asbestos , mainly due the cost of paying for the tests .   What you are experiencing is not unusual .

I've seen attitudes get really angry when someone says the "A" word.

I agree 100% and believe that we often have to contend with a 'wealth before health' culture in the contracting industry.

You will often be unpopular when mentioning the "A" word but it is the right thing to do. I recently refused to install an external fan grille in an asbestos soffit and the customer did'nt like it but I walked away. My health is more important than someone's fan.

My personal view is that every building in the UK should have an asbestos survey and any asbestos should be removed regardless of cost. Yes the cost would be monstrous but safe management of existing asbestos material in buildings can fail because of human error, because a minority of people will fail to follow the correct procedures.

 

[Blue Duck]

I have found a lot of coucil properties are full of the stuff..Do they give a fork? No! 

They adopt the It was like that when I got here approach.

Also It's not uncommon to see a couple of EE labourers jumping up and down on a skip full of the stuff!

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I would be interested to know where the fact " 90%  of properties built before 2000 contain asbestos"  comes from.

 

[Essex1]

your awareness course is correct, but the levels of asbestos danger is pretty low in most materials. EG tollet cisterns, it may contain asbestos but to expose yourself to it you would basically need a grinder. What you really need to look out for is lagging and pipe insulation, and the sprayed concrete materials. Danger comes when turned to dust by drilling etc etc.

Have to say your employer sounds like a prat.The fact you are working as an untrained electrician says it all. It has to be said many builders have similar attitude to asbestos 'cos they've worked with it for years and aren't dead yet'. They have a point, if asbestos is so dangerous why aren't there more deaths? The fact is most of the asbestos materials encountered are low level hazards and they have 'got away with it', but their working practices are still unacceptable. My advice to you is use facemasks when encountering any form of dust, good ones.

4000 people died in 2014 due to asbestos related disease. The figures are horrendous and is still the biggest killer in construction and will be for many years. Anyone that thinks asbestos is not dangerous clearly does not understand it.   Yes undisturbed is not a problem but it only takes one tiny fibre to get into your lung and it is a slow death. 

 

[Sharpend]

If it only takes 1 fibre to kill you then what about all the years you were not even aware what asbestos was? I'd say at some time most people have unknowingly been around asbestos in its dangerous state so therefore we are all susceptible to the 1fibre problem? 

Now for clarity before I get descoobed again, I'm not saying the stuff isn't dangerous I'm saying that we can only be preventative if we are aware. Exactly what I was getting at in my last post, we can not be responsible for others attitude towards it only our own. 

 

[Essex1]

If it only takes 1 fibre to kill you then what about all the years you were not even aware what asbestos was? I'd say at some time most people have unknowingly been around asbestos in its dangerous state so therefore we are all susceptible to the 1fibre problem? 

Now for clarity before I get descoobed again, I'm not saying the stuff isn't dangerous I'm saying that we can only be preventative if we are aware. Exactly what I was getting at in my last post, we can not be responsible for others attitude towards it only our own. 

As I said, we are still seeing 4000 deaths every year. These death s are now the result of these people working without protection years ago. It is simple unacceptable to say things like 'most asbestos is not dangerous'. It is that bad advice and attitude that leaves people not to properly consider the dangers. All asbestos is dangerous.  Yes some will give you a higher chance of developing an asbestos related illness but all asbestos is capable of this. 

I always ask someone that insist on cutting corners with this type of thing "would you ask your child to do that". That usually demands a different response and makes that person see things differently. Of course some do not care less but then you should ask yourself if they are worth working for.  

 

[binky]

I've looked at a few jobs, 60s construction with asbestos everywhere, suppossedly sealed, dust everwhere, and have been glad not to get them.

What I was getting at, is that people get a bit too jumpy abut the low risk asbestos materials, dust is an issue asbestos or not, and people certainly don't take enough notice of breathing dust especially when angle grinding.

 

[M107]

Its not only the private sector where if you raise Asbestos concerns people get upset.......................I did just this recently & refused to proceed with the scheduled work until a new assessment had been undertaken, this request was made because the asbestos register at the site had pages that were for a totally different site in it so how could I safely say the register was in fact for the site where I had to pull in new cables through the floor duct (I know there is asbestos there on the pipes  ).

It turned out the registers across the sites had been dished out by somebody that didn't know what was supposed to go where, hence a few sites were muddled up.

Anyway my refusal to proceed set back the works & went down like a fart in a space suit......

 

[Essex1]

Its not only the private sector where if you raise Asbestos concerns people get upset.......................I did just this recently & refused to proceed with the scheduled work until a new assessment had been undertaken, this request was made because the asbestos register at the site had pages that were for a totally different site in it so how could I safely say the register was in fact for the site where I had to pull in new cables through the floor duct (I know there is asbestos there on the pipes  ).

It turned out the registers across the sites had been dished out by somebody that didn't know what was supposed to go where, hence a few sites were muddled up.

Anyway my refusal to proceed set back the works & went down like a fart in a space suit......

The asbestos register is not the correct document for these type of works. If you are working to this document then your employer is breakin the law. The register is only meant as a 'guide' and must not be worked to. 

 

[Essex1]

I've looked at a few jobs, 60s construction with asbestos everywhere, suppossedly sealed, dust everwhere, and have been glad not to get them.

What I was getting at, is that people get a bit too jumpy abut the low risk asbestos materials, dust is an issue asbestos or not, and people certainly don't take enough notice of breathing dust especially when angle grinding.

The problem is this type of talk.  It is usually the older generation that have this approach. Putting people at risk in order to make a living is unnacceptable in any way, shape or form. Yes asbestos undisturbed is fine. But unless you know where ACMs are when you are working how can you be sure you are not disturbing any?  

I would ask why would you even tender for a job where you know asbestos dust is present?  Maybe I have been out the domestic side of things too long. 

 

[ProDave]

+1 to the above.

There are a row of farm cottages near us that clearly from their external appearance are a modular pre fabricated construction and quite old, probably 60's or even earlier. So I would bet my last £ that these contain a lot of asbestos.

They asked me to qoute for rewiring them and i declined because I did not want to be disturbing and drilling the structure of the buildings as I suspected asbestos was present.  The owners were quite rude to me and dismissed my cioncerns as being over cautious. So I walked and let somebody else have the "problem"  Hopefully whoever did it, got a proper asbestos survey done and took the right precautions, but it was not something I had any intention of getting involved in.

That's a big benefit of being self employed, if you don't like a job, you don't have to do it.

 

[Tony S]

4000 people died in 2014 due to asbestos related disease. The figures are horrendous and is still the biggest killer in construction and will be for many years. Anyone that thinks asbestos is not dangerous clearly does not understand it.   Yes undisturbed is not a problem but it only takes one tiny fibre to get into your lung and it is a slow death. 

The 4000 people that died in 2014 didn’t contract asbestosis/pneumoconiosis in 2013. You have to look at age, likely exposure and a myriad of other factors to give any WAG.

Companies send people on these short courses, the employee then thinks himself to be a asbestos safety expert.

They are awareness courses! It’s about time they came up with a practical guide to dealing with asbestos course.