Old Style Fuse Boards With Asbestos Flash Pads

[Essex1]

Unfortunately people who carry out the checks for asbestos in most places will not open up fuseboards to check as are not qualified to do so as is the case with this board on This job this morning .

Must be the equivalent of a 5WW then because that is not acceptable.

 

[Sidewinder]

The trouble is asbestos surveyors are not electrically competent, thus they can't open up boards!

 

[Lurch]

Should they not note this on the survey in much the same way as an EICR should say unable to access DB rather than just pretending it doesn't exist?

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes Lurch most definitely.

DB's must be assessed the same as any other, after a long heated debate with Mr Peckham a few years ago, I did eventually see his point, asbestos in electrical switchgear is a code 2 on a PIR (EICR) as it poses a danger to life.

 

[Essex1]

Ahhhh but it was ok when it was installed (deliberatly provicative post alert).

 

[Sidewinder]

It was, yes, however, when doing an EICR/PIR you have to compare with current standards, thus, it's unacceptable and can be lethal, so it's a code 2, you can't go away from that as it's a banned substance.

 

[Essex1]

It was, yes, however, when doing an EICR/PIR you have to compare with current standards, thus, it's unacceptable and can be lethal, so it's a code 2, you can't go away from that as it's a banned substance.

Oh I agree with you.  I just hate the 'well it complied when it was installed' argument.  But that conversation is for another thread.

 

[Sidewinder]

Now there are times when you may need to prove what is and what is not compliant, or more to the point was compliant when installed.

Certainly if legal action is to be taken, hence my recent request for copies of the 15th edition, to have to hand the actual requirements at the time of installation.

As an aside, how about this for an asbestos "argument"?

"Asbestos arc shields and switchgear cover seals are part of the electrical installation so these are “Electrical Equipment” as defined in BS7671 Part 2.  Regulation 634.2 of BS7671 requires the reporting following a periodic inspection and test of “dangerous conditions”."

 

[roys]

So while up the loft looking for a regs book for Sidey I came across a new Royal RF153 fused isolator. When I say new it is probably 25 years old but it has never been fitted and sitting on a shelf for all of it life.

So it can take fuse wire or HRC fuses, fitted are NIT 20A fuses but is that an asbestos back in the fuse holder base?

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes it is Roys.

 

[switch10]

Must be the equivalent of a 5WW then because that is not acceptable.

That's not correct, because a 5ww would open the board and carry on with work.

These people realise there not qualified so don't mess with it. Although I believe there supposed to then assume the boards do contain asbestos and label accordingly

 

[Essex1]

That's not correct, because a 5ww would open the board and carry on with work.

These people realise there not qualified so don't mess with it. Although I believe there supposed to then assume the boards do contain asbestos and label accordingly

Any decent electrician can see a DB that contains ACMs a mile off. I would have assumed an asbestos specialist would be able to do the same.

 

[Sidewinder]

I have seen DB's that used to contain asbestos, and they were not on the register, so I queried it and was told by the premises manager that the DB's had had their asbestos removed.

Ok, they had removed all the door gaskets etc. and all the flash guards from the rewirable fuses.

So no there was no asbestos present, hopefully it was all done correctly.

However, the question now arises, without the asbestos flash guards are the rewirable fuses still fit for purpose?...

 

[Essex1]

Very fair question.

 

[Manator]

I have seen DB's that used to contain asbestos, and they were not on the register, so I queried it and was told by the premises manager that the DB's had had their asbestos removed.

Ok, they had removed all the door gaskets etc. and all the flash guards from the rewirable fuses.

So no there was no asbestos present, hopefully it was all done correctly.

However, the question now arises, without the asbestos flash guards are the rewirable fuses still fit for purpose?...

I can tell you from experience they are not.

Quite a few years ago I did the old PIR on a woodworking shop, I noticed that some of the boards did indeed have the asbestos removed from them. I questioned the workshop manager and he told me that as asbestos had been identified they removed it for safety.

At this point I told him that by doing so he had made the boards themselves dangerous and coded it a class 1, they ignored it and that was that.

A year later I received a call to quote to replace all the boards. This was because of a fire that had started that was nothing to do with the boards but the insurance loss adjuster or whomever it was, told them that the boards were a fire hazard because no suppression had been provided.

Whilst there I asked the foreman how he knew (not being an electrician) he told me that it was because the door seals had been removed and the gap could allow ingress of dust into the board. I could not argue with that. Good to see that at least some people know.

 

[Phoenix]

I have NO height limit for working BUT I am excluded from installing aerials!

Careful with that one Kerch...

Does it exclude aerials or antennas?

If the former, then it might not just be television and radio antennas which are excluded, but other things that are classed as aerial works:

Dictionary definition is "existing, happening, or operating in the air" so is likely to catch installing cables on catenary wires as well...

At this point I told him that by doing so he had made the boards themselves dangerous and coded it a class 1

I agree with you that the boards can no longer be expected to work as designed, but I'd argue that a code 1 isn't appropiate. Code 2 would be reasonable

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Are those little white squares on the 'backing' plates ( not the fuse carriers) of a Wylex standard range board asbestos ?

 

[Evans Electric]

So just refering back to my post #35 ....   are the likes of the ECA , the JIB, The  Union , The NICEIC , the IEE , BEMA , BAFTA, The FA, The EU and the London Fire Brigade slow in forthcoming with a ruling on this ?

Soon introduced metal boards into domestic jobs . 

 

[Manator]

I agree with you that the boards can no longer be expected to work as designed, but I'd argue that a code 1 isn't appropiate. Code 2 would be reasonable

I started my apprenticeship with a very large established electrical manufacturing group in the late 1970's. In our workshop we had rolls of asbestos shielding, when fuses blew out and damaged the asbestos shield we would replace it. The company policy at the time was that this provided a crucial safety feature.

Also in the workshop we would on a regular basis cut sheets of asbestos with a band saw, we had no idea in those years of the dangers.

So now comes the individual perception of danger and how individuals perceive that danger.

I was brought up and trained to believe that if safety features were removed it presented a problem that needed to be overcome, in those years we did not have periodic inspection reports and anyone doing electrical works were fully trained electricians and their labourers. However everyone in those years, I am talking 15th edition years, knew that safety was 2 thirds of the exam syllabus in their second year of training.Removing what the industry believed was a vital safety feature could only warrant a code 1. It would be impossible for myself to agree with a code 2 given my training and the emphasis imposed on myself as an apprentice about safety.

 

[Phoenix]

Does anyone actually KNOW if it is safe or unsafe to pull the fuse & repair it .  

I've been trying for a long time to get an answer to that from from various asbestos training companies...no one will commit themselves to a straight answer, you just get "They are generally low risk, but it isn't something I'd recommend"

Or even drill the board , gland an SWA to it and connect it . ?

I can't see how that could be acceptable... you have the risk of the vibration from the drill disturbing things, and also you are making the problem worse (more circuits protected with protective devices that shouldn't be removed for maintenance

If you download the H&S  advice it says   " Get an electrician to kill the board  then cut all the cables off  , lever it off the wall and bag it "  Or words to that effect .

I want to know what they expect should happen when the board is mounted on a dexion frame with a load of other switchgear, trunking above and below the board, oh, and supply authority head also mounted to the same frame. Or a load of Imperial MIs glanded off into the board disappearing into the fabric of the building