pir instead of eic??

[rujebogdy]

I have been called by a customer last night telling me that he needs a certificate for his installation .i asked him how old the installation was.

Him: it's new

Me: who done it?

Him : a chinese bloke

Me: then you are calling the wrong person ....

The story was that some asian guy done the refurbishment and the electrical installation and didn't give any cert. I told him that was illegal and I can't certify somebody else job. The most I can do is a PIR... He said that will call back.... I bet that he will not,as I was getting quite cross with his ignorance. What do you guys think?

As an aside note, I know companies doing the commissioning and issuing certificates for new installations done by other companies. Is that different from the situation above?? I wouldn't cert that job anyway but just was curious .... Any comments, appreciated ...

 

[Doc Hudson]

This is a subject that has been discussed many time on the forum. You are correct that Domestic Installer approval is intended for the small business where one person signs the combined design, install, test declaration. However as ProDave often points out there still is the three signatory model form as per the examples in BS7671. Where a larger business may have some teams of guys doing install on a group of new builds and some other guys come along doing the testing. These new builds would still be within the scope of Part P and require the electrical & compliance certificates. So the three part certificate would be more appropriate, unless of course the guy doing the testing also inspected and monitored the installed cable routes before the plasterers hide them all. You could have offered to lift all the floorboards and remove plaster to expose your customers cables so you could inspect all of the cable routes! I think you are correct treating these situations with caution. Always think about what happens if someone has a fatal electric shock or a house fire and your name is on the certificate. If a PIR was acceptable I would think you would need to open up everything and not do any sampling to satisfy yourself of the installtions true condition.

Doc H.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I would put money on it that he is after a Part P notification and doesn't even know what an installation cert or periodic test paperwork is. Same ending as Doc has described though.

 

[ProDave]

So what do building control do, if there's no part P certificate?

Do they really refuse to issue a completion certificate?

Do they really force you to rip it all out and get it re done by someone who can issue a part p certificate?

Or do they eventually give in and sign it off regardless?

 

[rujebogdy]

You are right, I think is after the part p cert. I was thinking that if he really wants, I can the most, issue a Pir with lots of limitations in place,like routing of cables and such. Probably will fail and I will issue an unsatisfactory cert. I don't know how that will help him but will learn a lesson

----------------------------------------------------

I know about the 3 signature page but I was thinking about other company doing the inspection and testing than the one doing the design and erection....

 

[m4tty]

Even if a 3 signature eic was used and you just signed for testing could you still notify? I'd steer clear tbh it stinks

 

[Sidewinder]

You can't notify work under Part P unless the work has been "overseen" by your "enterprise".

You are not allowed to notify work that has been installed by A.N. Other end of.

ProDave,

The BC are legally allowed to make you rip it out and have it re-done at your expense, including charges from them to inspect it after it has been ripped out.

Remember non compliance with Part P is a criminal offence.

 

[Evans Electric]

Is it really, Sidewhinger !!!!

 

[batty]

All depends on council they may accept a PIR but there again they may not.

 

[rujebogdy]

Yes,you are right. But I don't have the intention of notifying the job on there behalf, I was thinking to to a pir for the owner's piece of mind, which will fail,no doubt about it....

On a different note just can't get my head around how this thing works,with one company is doing the commissioning for different installations both commercial and domestic ,is issuing the cert. and signs on the inspection and testing box and the company doing the installation ,signs off on the design and construction

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

My understanding was that you need a EIC to get your completion cert from the building regs people.

We all know that you cannot cert other peoples work.

Of course the building regs people make up the rules as they go along, and so they will get a subbie electrician to come along and do a PIR. [but they would not accept it if you got your own....no profit in that]

Even though they have still NOT got an EIC, they do not care, as they have charged you [probably illegally] bundles, and then they go away happy.

If your house later burns down, they do not care, it is not their name on the PIR, they just skim off the profit..

More on the illegal bit; So far as i know, they are not allowed to charge you for the testing, so, they get around this by charging a huge "notification fee"

Not what the government intended when they brought out part "P" but the council does not care, there is money to be earned!!!!!

john..

 

[maselec]

The owner probably already has 'piece of mind' as it all 'works'. Be wary of doing a PIR which comes back as unsatisfactory in this instance, you may not get paid and will very probably have an unhappy customer then willing to badmouth you to anyone who will listen.

I carried out a PIR last year where the customer told me he had just bought the house, yet he only wanted 2 circuits testing (the ring and lighting that fed the new extension) for piece of mind.

I believed him as the DB was '16th edition' (for want of a better description). Turns out, he'd lived there years and his Dad the builder had done the extension, wiring, gas, everything. Noted on PIR, no main bonding, no ring continuity (only 3 sockets, which he wouldnt let me unscrew as would ruin the paint!) and reverse polarity on lighting (looped in at switches and got mixed up, builders response? 'thought blue was always a switch wire in switches?'). Turns out also that he'd 'upgraded' the 3036 DB at the same time, as I said single RCD unit, no upgrade of tails or main earth, no main bonding. When I told the son it was wrong, his reply was, 'well he got it from city electrical'. He then wanted a refund after the building inspector wouldn't accept PIR for the extension. Don't know how they got around it but I know nothings been done as I drive past it all the time. I distinctly got the feeling that the builder had done this before, so how many inspectors have stuffed a PIR in a file and passed a job?

 

[rujebogdy]

That is a really good example, thank you guys. Is unbelievable what lengths people will go not to get an approved electrician instead. I think is a mixture of ignorance and not knowing of the regulations from the clients( and builders....) I think people should be aware more of the part p, but I think is more common sense to get an qualified spark than somebody of the street who can say that can do your electrics cheaper...

 

[Andy™]

More on the illegal bit; So far as i know, they are not allowed to charge you for the testing, so, they get around this by charging a huge "notification fee"

correct. LABC's were also 'reminded' of this in circular 8/2004 (IIRC)

but i think LABC should be able to charge extra for I&T. after all, if there is no EIC, then the work is not to 7671, therefore they should not be able to 'pass' the work

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Andy,

Yes exactly, but my point is, if i wired up your house say, [not being qualified] the building people would insist on an EIC. [which i could not give them]

I could not say " i wired it, but my mate is properly qualified, and he has done a PIR for me instead" as they would not accept it and would point out that it, [quite rightly] did not comply with the rules.

But a "not done by the installer" PIR is ok, instead of an EIC, when it suits them!!!

Apparently though, some authorities, no doubt having seen the money that the schemes are making, have their own scheme. You show them your quals, and, if they accept them, from then on, all you do in their area, they will just accept, same as if you were a scheme member.

What they charge for this i do not know, but i bet the schemes do not like it!!!

john..

 

[Andy™]

Hi Andy,Yes exactly, but my point is, if i wired up your house say, [not being qualified] the building people would insist on an EIC. [which i could not give them]

yes, you can. you only need to be competent. which if you have just wired a house, then i would expect you to be

 

[Sidewinder]

There is an exemption for LABC to arrange inspections to allow things to be passed, there has to be it's their "job"!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Hi all,My understanding was that you need a EIC to get your completion cert from the building regs people.

We all know that you cannot cert other peoples work.

Of course the building regs people make up the rules as they go along, and so they will get a subbie electrician to come along and do a PIR. [but they would not accept it if you got your own....no profit in that]

Even though they have still NOT got an EIC, they do not care, as they have charged you [probably illegally] bundles, and then they go away happy.

If your house later burns down, they do not care, it is not their name on the PIR, they just skim off the profit..

More on the illegal bit; So far as i know, they are not allowed to charge you for the testing, so, they get around this by charging a huge "notification fee"

Not what the government intended when they brought out part "P" but the council does not care, there is money to be earned!!!!!

john..

I think you are completely missing the point on this and a lot of what you state if factually incorrect. I would be interested to see you references for these suppositions. Ignore the electrical aspect of the work for the moment and remember that LABC's have been monitoring inspecting and passing building works of all sorts for many many years. They have always had various fee scales set up proportional to the size of the building project. The instance where they will do or arrange a contractor to do testing for them is where a DIY person notifies work in advance then pays a fee for the council staff to do their work. For anyone who's ever had any building works done I don't see that the notification fees for the electrical aspect are that extortionate. Whereas if someone has failed to notify works and/or fails to issue the correct completion documentation then fines can be issued or orders for the works to be dismantled or anything suitable in between the two extremes that the council sees appropriate. This has been the normal practice of LABC's long before part P came along and I don't know why you are implying that Part p is a magical money machine that councils are jumping on. If a council inspector comes to check the footings on a building project and he is not satisfied and has to make a repeat visits I think you will find the builder/homeowner will incur additional charges above the standard fee for a single visit at each stage of the job.

Doc H.

 

[Manator]

I was recently contacted by a local council to do such an inspection, the refurbishment done to a large house near me was finished just has the building company went bust. The council wanted to ensure that the electrical installation was safe, thats the key word here "safe". I did a PIR and submitted it to the council. They did issue a compliance certificate based on the pir. The homeowner had to pay extra fees for this, and was then submitted to the receiver as a debt owed to them.

In this instance they accepted the pir, however I know that they do not accept them per sey.

 

[pickleye]

My wifes cousin had a loft conversion wired by an electricain (genuinly), before i joined the trade. He didn't do certs - or there was a problem with them, can't remember, and building control wouldn't give a completion cert.

Over five years later, they decided to move and needed cert doing. I contacted their building control guy who said he was still waiting for the eic. I explained the situation and that i was not prepared to issue a eic for someone elses work. He agreed to accept a PIR as after five years it hadn't burnt down. I supplied my quals with the pir as I'm not a scam member (only employed under one).

He said they sometimes get this where builders go bust or for other reasons leave without full completion and they deal with the situations as they arrise. He was very helpfull and didn't come accross as any form of money making con. They were not charged any extra by LABC.

Shortly after PIR went in completion cert came through post.

If i hadn't known the loft was done by a spark (nephews mate then working away) and it had been for family i wouldn't have done it. That said, the loft was fine but the previously installed shower was a different matter - pictures in black museum somewhere.

My experience of building control was a positive one to be honest, time will tell as it looks like i'm doing a love job rewire in the next few months, and I'll be notifying the hard way as i'm still not a scam member.