Protective Earth Bonding To The Water Supply

[Spyne]

We recently had an engineer out from British Gas to do a survey to see if we could have an electric car charge point installed. He says he wont pass the job because we don't have protective earth bonding to the water supply. I phoned the builders of our home, and they contacted DW Hargreaves who informed them because they do it in plastic piping it doesnt need the protective earth bonding. After phoning back the british gas engineer, he insisted, because there is both copper and plastic under our sink, we must have protective earth bonding or else he will not sign off our job. I phoned the builders back, who also insist there own point that they do not need protective earth bonding as the copper pipes under the sink change to plastic as they go throughout the house.

I am banging my head against a brick wall here!! And it's giving me a serious headache! Who is right? The house was built in 2008. Should we have protective earth bonding or not? And if we call out an independant electrician is this the type of job we could get a free quote for and would he be bale to say definitively?

Thank-you anyone, for any help!

 

[Technician]

Can you give us the earthing arrangement?

If the build is 2008 it will more likely be TN-C-S

but the guys need to know.

Quote from On Site Guide;

"Where there is a plastic incoming service and a

metal installation within the premises, main bonding

is recommended unless it has been confirmed that

any metallic pipework within the building is NOT

introducing earth potential."

 

[ProDave]

Why don't BG just do the bonding when they install the charger point if they really feel it's necessary?

Perhaps you need to forget getting a GAS company to do electrical work, and just get a local electrician to install the charging point?

As to whether you need it, it's a bit complicated and maybe / maybe not.  If it's an easy job, then it certainly can't do any harm. 

 

[Spyne]

Thankyou for getting back to me! 

How would I find out the earthing arrangement to let you know (sorry, complete utility novice)

BG are going to install it for free, to get it and have it put in by someone else would cost us near to £1000!! I would happily have had it done with someone else otherwise. 

What do you think it would cost to get the bonding put in if we did actually need it?

 

[Technician]

Send pics of the earthing/power intake

at the point where it comes into the house.

Include any labels attached.

 

[ProDave]

What's this deal where you get £1000 of work for free?

More tax payers money to help you go "green"?

But if BG insist on the bonding to give it to you for free, it's got to be worth getting a local electrician to install some bonding. It might not be a big job, depending how far it is from the consumer unit to the water stopcock

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

We recently had an engineer out from British Gas to do a survey to see if we could have an electric car charge point installed. He says he wont pass the job because we don't have protective earth bonding to the water supply. I phoned the builders of our home, and they contacted DW Hargreaves who informed them because they do it in plastic piping it doesnt need the protective earth bonding. After phoning back the british gas engineer, he insisted, because there is both copper and plastic under our sink, we must have protective earth bonding or else he will not sign off our job. I phoned the builders back, who also insist there own point that they do not need protective earth bonding as the copper pipes under the sink change to plastic as they go throughout the house.

I am banging my head against a brick wall here!! And it's giving me a serious headache! Who is right? The house was built in 2008. Should we have protective earth bonding or not? And if we call out an independant electrician is this the type of job we could get a free quote for and would he be bale to say definitively?

Thank-you anyone, for any help!

Thankyou for getting back to me! 

How would I find out the earthing arrangement to let you know (sorry, complete utility novice)

BG are going to install it for free, to get it and have it put in by someone else would cost us near to £1000!! I would happily have had it done with someone else otherwise. 

What do you think it would cost to get the bonding put in if we did actually need it?

From the facts you have give so far I would be inclined to agree with the builders and their electrician..

And suggest that the B.G. man is talking out of his rear end!

Reasons as follows..

Property built in 2008 is most likely a TNCS earth arrangment...

BUT even more importantly it will almost certainly have plastic incoming gas and water pipes...

Also...

the property should have an electrical installation certificate (about 3x A4 sheets)..

and a Building regulations Part-P compliance certificate.. (1x A4 sheet)

this will have been issued by the builders electrician and it will be signed to say that all the wiring..

AND BONDING is all up to current standards of BS7671 (wiring regs).

There has been no significant change in the wiring regulations since 2008 requiring any additional main or supplementary bonding to be installed.

Therefore as the builder is saying the bonding will be all as per BS7671:2008. and should be perfectly adequate for the safety of the installtion..

There is an electrical guide book to the wiring regs called the On Site guide...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-Site-Guide-Regulations-incorporating-Amendment/dp/1849192871/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360326307&sr=1-1

Chapter 4 talks about earthing and bonding, bullet points 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 on pages 41-43 of that guide give the recommendation as to how and where bonding is required.

If your installation does not meet these requirements then the builders should be bringing it up to standards at no charge as it should have been done already....

But as said previously...

It most likely is.. and its the B.G. man with his head in knots!!

(it has been known before for some B.G. staff to request or insist upon things that are outside of the normal requirements of BS7671!!)

Metal work that needs bonding is basically in two main categories..

Exposed conductive parts:  Conductive metal that is part of an electrical fitting, e.g. cooker, washing machine etc..

Extraneous conductive parts:  Other bits of metal that are accessible within the property and are also making a contact with earth, (the ground), e.g. incoming metal water / gas pipes..

If your property has plastic gas & water pipes these are neither exposed or extraneous parts.

If the metal bits under the sink make no electrical path to earth then they are neither exposed or extraneous parts

There is NO specific requirement in BS7671 to bond a metal domestic kitchen sink, just because it is metal!

As a side note:   BG will not be installing this for free..  (you or someone else is paying for it along the system with either higher fuel bills, high call out premiums or "service contracts" that give them a very handsome profit) 

Options:-

Get an independant electrician to come round and check you earthing and bonding for you..

You could use the forums Find and electrician bit:

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/2194-find-your-local-electrician-here-list-of-uk-qualified-electricians/

Or there are also two electrical registers that can help householders find approved electricians

http://www.electricsaferegister.co.uk/

and

http://www.electricalsafetyregister.com/index.html

Personally if I were local, for no more than £25 tops, I would check all your earthing & bonding, and verify it is up to current standards.

There is an old saying...

Jack of all trades.. Master of none...

sometimes this is true of these big organizations trying to do everything...

Tescos selling glasses and home insurance and kitchens etc.. etc..

Gas board...  doing electrical work....

AA...  doing home electrics...

they are all trying to cut corners somewhere..

OR..

generate more work than is necessary as staff can often be on commission and/or bonus targets!

My money would be on the Builder & his electrician been right as it is a relatively new property.

Guinness   opcorn

 

[Spyne]

Actually, British Gas will be directly invoicing Renault for the charge point, nothing to do with any Government funding at all.

I will contact a local electrician for advice and a quote then, thankyou.

 

[Steve3948]

It sounds like the whole installation Hot, Cold and heating is all done in plastic with odd convertion to copper to connect to sinks, rads, boiler etc. You often see a 10mm strapped to the water main stop cock, just somewhere to terminate.

However what about the Gas supply ?

 

[ProDave]

Actually, British Gas will be directly invoicing Renault for the charge point, nothing to do with any Government funding at all.

I will contact a local electrician for advice and a quote then, thankyou.

So presumably you are buying a new electric car, and Renault are supplying a charging point "free" of charge? (no pun intended)

I should go back to the car dealer and discuss it. Suggest you would prefer a local qualified electrician to provide the charging point and get them to authorise a local spark to install it and bill Renault.

As a buyer of a new car, you hold the cards and you have a lot of clout.

 

[Technician]

If the charging point is fixed could

this be called a static charge?

 

[Sharpend]

spyne, you are able to get a grant for 60% of the cost for the installation of the charging point. This is effectively what BG are doing so don't be fooled by all their sales patter. Unfortunately for us real sparks BG have done a deal with most car manufacturers to install a 'free' charge point. However they will almost definitely not install anything but a straightforward install as otherwise the cost is passed onto you. You will probably find that they will not install according to IET code of practice. Ask your British gas electrician where he is putting the earth rod.

If you need to know anything else please ask.

Regarding your earth bond to the water. On a house built in 2008 look for a sticker at the incoming supply that says this system is a PME, this will give an indication as to the earth arrangements for the supply. Your builders plumber will of almost certainly used plastic pipe throughout the install,as said, the occasional piece of copper may be used as tails to the accessories. Do you have evidence of plastic? Try looking at he point where the pipes come through the walls. As said the likely hood is that the incoming supply pipes for gas and water will be plastic. Have a look where your water stop tap is below the stop tap is usually blue pipe, confirm this by removing plinth to cupboard if stop tap is in the kitchen under the sink. If you have what I have described a water bond is not required.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

It doesn't matter what your supply earthing arrangement is, from your description bonding is not needed. Its the  same carp from BG we get all the time about the meter not 'earth bonded'. Not an electricians problem as we bond at point of entry to the building and not necessarily at the meter. BG rules are different to the electrical regulations.

 

[Sharpend]

I suggested looking for the PME label as someone earlier made reference to earth arrangements thought it would save OP asking another question of what to look for, as most newer properties have the PME and are duly labelled as such.

 

[betty swollocks]

Perhaps the OP could post their location and maybe a forum member may be local enough to pop along and make a definitive answer on this

 

[Rutts35]

Actually, British Gas will be directly invoicing Renault for the charge point, nothing to do with any Government funding at all.

I will contact a local electrician for advice and a quote then, thankyou.

I think that's probably the last you'll hear from the OP. lol