Replacing Low Voltage Spotlights... Who's Right?

[Essex1]

I see where you are coming from but would you not bring the circuit up to current standards if the switch drops were buried?

 

[NozSpark]

OK, so as neither of us have seen this job we have to go by what the op has said,,,, however, at a max price of £400 just how much wiring do you think they're replacing,,, in addition to replacing the 12 light fittings?

 

[Murdoch]

I see where you are coming from but would you not bring the circuit up to current standards if the switch drops were buried?

Who mentioned switch drops....

 

[Doc Hudson]

I see where you are coming from but would you not bring the circuit up to current standards if the switch drops were buried?

So if a customer asks for a new bedroom light to be fitted, we will all end up pricing for fitting metal consumer units as well, if bringing everything up to current standards?  Wiring regulations are not retrospective. Assuming we are not talking about bathrooms, there is no regulation starting that RCD protection is needed for a light fitting, or for cables in lofts, or under floor voids. There is no regulation stating a whole circuit must be brought up to current regulations when doing any minor alterations. There are regulations stating you must verify the condition of earthing and bonding. There are regulations stating that if you are burring cables in walls either RCD or mechanical protection is needed and that RCD protection is needed for socket outlets and bathroom circuits. It is not uncommon for some electricians to try and over engineer a job. The customer is replacing some light fittings, the circuit is not been extended and assuming they go for LED's the max demand and load will be reducing. No light switch positions are being rewired or changed for two way so switch drop wiring is not relevant. What do you do if you then find upstairs and downstairs lights have crossed wiring at the hall - landing lights, so your new RCD keeps tripping. Rewire both light circuits all because the customer wanted a new bedroom light. Just quote for the work requested and only apply regulations that are applicable to the work in hand not the whole installation.

Doc H.

 

[Essex1]

So if a customer asks for a new bedroom light to be fitted, we will all end up pricing for fitting metal consumer units as well, if bringing everything up to current standards?  Wiring regulations are not retrospective. Assuming we are not talking about bathrooms, there is no regulation starting that RCD protection is needed for a light fitting, or for cables in lofts, or under floor voids. There is no regulation stating a whole circuit must be brought up to current regulations when doing any minor alterations. There are regulations stating you must verify the condition of earthing and bonding. There are regulations stating that if you are burring cables in walls either RCD or mechanical protection is needed and that RCD protection is needed for socket outlets and bathroom circuits. It is not uncommon for some electricians to try and over engineer a job. The customer is replacing some light fittings, the circuit is not been extended and assuming they go for LED's the max demand and load will be reducing. No light switch positions are being rewired or changed for two way so switch drop wiring is not relevant. What do you do if you then find upstairs and downstairs lights have crossed wiring at the hall - landing lights, so your new RCD keeps tripping. Rewire both light circuits all because the customer wanted a new bedroom light. Just quote for the work requested and only apply regulations that are applicable to the work in hand not the whole installation.

Doc H.

Oh my God. Have you read the op. The lights are to be re-wired in the loft space completely. His words. Not mine.

 

[Lurch]

Oh my God. Have you read the op. The lights are to be re-wired in the loft space completely. His words. Not mine.

Still no mention of rewiring switch drops, and it is unlikely anyone would unless they were wired in rubber.

 

[Murdoch]

Still no mention of rewiring switch drops, and it is unlikely anyone would unless they were wired in rubber.

Which brings us back to my post # 5

 

[NozSpark]

Oh my God. Have you read the op. The lights are to be re-wired in the loft space completely. His words. Not mine.

So you'd completely rewire a lighting circuit, replace 12 down lights and add RCD protection for £400????

 

[Essex1]

Nooooooo. Hence my post about very good costs. My understanding was re-wire in the loft space and re-using the same lights but installing GU10 lamp holders. Personally I would say that circuit has been altered enough that is warrants to be brought up to current standards. No need to change the DB though. Simple enclosure will do.

 

[Murdoch]

Nooooooo. Hence my post about very good costs. My understanding was re-wire in the loft space and re-using the same lights but installing GU10 lamp holders. Personally I would say that circuit has been altered enough that is warrants to be brought up to current standards. No need to change the DB though. Simple enclosure will do.

remind me why cables in a loft need RCD protection....

 

[Blue Duck]

Fauna

 

[Doc Hudson]

Oh my God. Have you read the op. The lights are to be re-wired in the loft space completely. His words. Not mine.

Yes I have read the OP. there are 12v lights with transformers and thus some 12v (probably flex) going to numerous light fittings. Nowhere is there any mention of the composition of the lighting circuit, how many lights in total it supplies or how much of it is to be retained unaltered. Just that the OP has decided to take out all of the 12v transformer wiring and replace it with 230v fittings.

Nooooooo. Hence my post about very good costs. My understanding was re-wire in the loft space and re-using the same lights but installing GU10 lamp holders. Personally I would say that circuit has been altered enough that is warrants to be brought up to current standards. No need to change the DB though. Simple enclosure will do.

The work will almost certainly be in the loft space, (unless we are talking of downstairs rooms), as that is where the top half of the light fitting resides. Replacing one 12v  light fitting with a 230v fitting has to include the associated transformer and the bit of wire between the two. This is not a rewire, it is an accessory replacement. Replacing 12x 12v fittings with 12x 230v fittings is 12x accessory replacements, not a rewire. If you so wish to do extra unrequired work then that is up to you. But there is no need for it from either BS7671 or Part P building regs. As I said earlier it is not uncommon for some "electricians" to try and over engineer a job unnecessarily by making up their own regulations and rules to the detriment of the customer and common sense.

Doc H.

 

[Essex1]

remind me why cables in a loft need RCD protection....

Not on their own. I just think there is enough work here to warrant the circuit to have been modified enough that the whole circuit should be brought up to standard. I am assuming some of the rest of the circuit would need RCD protection.

Yes I have read the OP. there are 12v lights with transformers and thus some 12v (probably flex) going to numerous light fittings. Nowhere is there any mention of the composition of the lighting circuit, how many lights in total it supplies or how much of it is to be retained unaltered. Just that the OP has decided to take out all of the 12v transformer wiring and replace it with 230v fittings.

The work will almost certainly be in the loft space, (unless we are talking of downstairs rooms), as that is where the top half of the light fitting resides. Replacing one 12v light fitting with a 230v fitting has to include the associated transformer and the bit of wire between the two. This is not a rewire, it is an accessory replacement. Replacing 12x 12v fittings with 12x 230v fittings is 12x accessory replacements, not a rewire. If you so wish to do extra unrequired work then that is up to you. But there is no need for it from either BS7671 or Part P building regs. As I said earlier it is not uncommon for some "electricians" to try and over engineer a job unnecessarily by making up their own regulations and rules to the detriment of the customer and common sense.

Doc H.

We must be reading different ops. No one is over engineering. Just a difference of opinions. Not uncommon I am sure you would agree as the op has also highlighted with Mr A, B, C etc.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Not on their own. I just think there is enough work here to warrant the circuit to have been modified enough that the whole circuit should be brought up to standard. I am assuming some of the rest of the circuit would need RCD protection.

We must be reading different ops. No one is over engineering. Just a difference of opinions. Not uncommon I am sure you would agree as the op has also highlighted with Mr A, B, C etc.

It would appear you are indeed reading a different OP, (possibly thread even).  To summarise what this thread refers to: 12 light fittings being replaced by 12 different light fittings, in the same physical locations, controlled by the same switch(es), fed from the same source of energy. Circuit lengths remain the same, OCPD remains the same, total circuit load no greater (probably less). Yet somehow this circuit has been modified significantly differently to what it was before the work commenced. 

Doc H.

 

[NozSpark]

Not on their own. I just think there is enough work here to warrant the circuit to have been modified enough that the whole circuit should be brought up to standard. I am assuming some of the rest of the circuit would need RCD protection.

I doubt that any part of this circuit NEEDS rcd protection as it could have easily been I stalled to the 16th ed or even earlier versions..

I'm not saying that I wouldn't offer it, but I wouldn't make a condition of the job

 

[kerching]

Dons NOMEX and holds Fire Extinguisher, but....and remember I know nothing of these matters.....can you just shove a GU10 lampholder in a 12 V fitting IF the manufacturer did not supply one with the fitting? CE marking and all that. Or, as per usual, am I talking a load of Brucie (old bollocks!)

Just wondering

 

[roys]

Well kerching I have, did 8 of them in my kitchen that very way, in fact there is a thread on this very subject about 6 months ago where we discussed the in and outs of it.

 

[IzzyS]

C is right about RCD protection. this changed in 2008. A&B should be aware of that.

D is talking BS. you can get GU10 connectors separately. many downlights are identical between 12 / 230v, just a different connector. terminal block is usually the same too, except an extra one for earth on the 230v. some downlights come with both MR16 & GU10

as for bathrooms, if the ceiling is above 2.25mtr you dont need an IP rating, below that you need at least IPx4. personally, i will only fit IPx4 or above, but usually stick with the x4 because the lamp is closer to the glass, giving more light. there is also no requirement for them to be 12v either

if you do decide to replace the fittings, i would go with a GU10 type and fit an LED lamp into it rather than a complete LED fitting, purely because when it does fail its easier to replace a lamp than try and find a new fitting to match

from what you have said, i would go with C

Some SELV fittings are marked as Class III with a warning "Must not be connected to the mains".  You can't tell without physically looking at them. And certainly not by phone...

 

[Phoenix]

if you do decide to replace the fittings, i would go with a GU10 type and fit an LED lamp into it rather than a complete LED fitting, purely because when it does fail its easier to replace a lamp than try and find a new fitting to match

I generally prefer to go for a complete fitting; if someone is spending money to have them converted, then they might as well have them converted properly not (in my opinion) some halfway solution in the form of GU10 led lamps that is designed as a quick and easy solution for if GU10 lamps are already present. Which also does not prevent someone going back to TH when the reason for the conversion might be fore heat related issues, etc

I like these: http://www.scolmore.com/products/inceptor-micro/ They come with the plug in connector as well... 50% of existing installed fittings don't seem to be terminated correctly, so you'd need a joint box with cable restraint anyway