Reporting the cowboys

[maselec]

So you feel you were not assessed properly by Napit,,, could be argued then you think they are money making cowboys ????

I never said anything of the sort, what am I expected to do in this situation? Ask them to assess me more throughly?

why would i want to do a 4 year apprentiship if all i wanted to do was domestic house bashing ??

A ring main is a ring main wether it is in a house, a school a factory etc. It needs wiring in a ring, in the right size cable, run correctly, terminated correctly, tested, etc etc. Why all of a sudden do we have discriminations between types of installation? Because of part p! Its as though domestic installation has become a trade in its own right! Its not. The issue is competency. Part p only affects domestic installations, indicating that the powers that be believe it is MORE important to prove competency. Your comments would indicate that you believe competency is less important in a domestic installation.

 

[Theorysparky]

The issue is competency. Part p only affects domestic installations, indicating that the powers that be believe it is MORE important to prove competency. Your comments would indicate that you believe competency is less important in a domestic installation.

your assessor thought so !!

 

[ProDave]

A ring main is a ring main wether it is in a house, a school a factory etc. It needs wiring in a ring, in the right size cable, run correctly, terminated correctly, tested, etc etc. Why all of a sudden do we have discriminations between types of installation? Because of part p! Its as though domestic installation has become a trade in its own right! Its not. The issue is competency. Part p only affects domestic installations, indicating that the powers that be believe it is MORE important to prove competency.

Not quite.

In a commercial installation a ring main is likely to be nice and simple, wired in conduit or trunking, nice easy and clearly identifiable cable routes etc.

In domestic, because of the obsession with hiding all the cables, everything is burried and depending who did the installation and when, you are likely to find some very tortuous cable routes that don't necessarily comply with the wiring regs.

But above all, a commercial installation is very unlikely to be touched by anyone other than a qualified electrician. Whereas a high percentage of domestic installations have been modified or added to by the house owners with varying degrees of knowledge and competence, ranging from almost as good as a time served sparky, to downright dangerous bodge jobs.

So Part P was brought about to stop the DIY dan from making a muck up of his own house and endangering himself or the next owner. The fact qualified sparkies get caught up in the flack and have to waste money joining a scam to prove their competence is a by product of part P.

All I can say is I am glad that so far, the Scottish Government have not seen the need for part P up here, so us time served competent sparkies can carry on without unnecessary red tape.

 

[ian3012]

the term... "competent person" is a farce imho.... a total copout by the powers that be. our whole country is full of these comedy shows.

in australia i believe joe public cant wire a plug by law. thats a bit over the top imo but we're not even close to that kind of policing.. there's none..

why should you join a scam if you've little/no chance of getting caught?

weak government and too many regulatory bodies. if we knew what quals/experience constituted the term 'electrician'... we'd just go and get them.... then only 'electricians' would be doing the job, and we wouldn't be moaning would we.

and yes i too believe that inspections by the scam are too slack... i've worked with niceic approved contractors that i wouldn't trust to paint my shed. of course the vast majority are fine, but i think once the scam is taking your money you're in for life, and no probs.. :coat

 

[exbdc]

Be interested to know if anybody actually ever gets struck off by any of these people. A hall of shame would be interesting but I suspect they'd never publicise it.

 

[kme]

The "connections" mag has a section on page (3 or 5, I misremember which), of "removals from the roll" - though one would suspect that its usually due to scheme-hopping, business ceasing trading, or non-payment of fees. They don`t tend to specify........

 

[maselec]

your assessor thought so !!

That doesn't make him correct!

 

[professional]

I am with ELECSA and recently got a news letter through saying that they have been working with ROGUE TRADERS to show people what hidden dangers there are if they got the work done by a cowboy.Hopefully this will work.

But many of the cowboys ARE registered!

 

[confused-fuse]

last year around here we had alot of polish scams going on electricians/plumbers going around knocking on old peoples doors saying it was law thay need to replace the

consumer units and having new copper pipe fitted for new earth bonding.. people like this need shooting or worse as soon thay feel the heat coming thay move to the next town/city

alot of them are not qualified to change a plugtop never mind change a CU :-(

the law needs to change i have been in the electronic and electrical trade for years and i have seen some right horror electrical problems

 

[Mark2spark]

If I find out that a CU has been replaced with no notification I report direct to the local BC via email. ] (the customers name and address not the cowboy cos they go after the householder first and then the cowboy only if the work is duff)

Nothing so far has been done but it's made me feel better O)

I now add the caveat at the bottom of the snitch, that in one years time I will be requesting under the Freedom of Information Act details of how many of the leads/lawbreaks etc that they have followed through on, and that I will be divulging the results to the local press. I also say that I'm CC'ing the letter to the local councillor who has to be voted in.

Whather anything will happen I don't know but I just feel that if we ALL do it regularly then eventually the penny might drop.

And I like this smiley so much i'm going to use it for the hell of it Wet Fish lol

 

[ProDave]

If I find out that a CU has been replaced with no notification I report direct to the local BC via email. ] (the customers name and address not the cowboy cos they go after the householder first and then the cowboy only if the work is duff)Nothing so far has been done but it's made me feel better O)

So, if a HOUSEHOLDER has a new CU fitted (knowingly or not) by a "cowboy" who didn't notify it, then it makes YOU feel better to give the HOUSEHOLDER a lot of grief does it?

In most cases I suspect the householder is not to blame. They probably don't know what does and does not need notifying and assume an "electrician" will do everything properly.

I just want to understand your logic in causing grief to the householder, not the cowboy electrician who did the job.

Do you think it will make the householder choose a better electrician next time?

 

[Mark2spark]

Dave, I find that some 5 years after Part P came into existence, there's actually very few people now that don't know about it.

Sure, there's some exceptions, but on the whole... (and on mybuilder/rated people type wensites theres a part p disclaimer info thing)

So it's whether you/I think that householders who stick two fingers up to us registered sparks by going cheaper are worth our generous benefit of the doubt or not.

I say not.

I should also add that my 'getting wind of a non notified cu change' normally comes about through a customer going with a cheaper non registered 'spark' having first advertised on rated people and i've replied and paid the finders fee and told them of the legal implications which they've chosen to ignore.

So it seems that I have to lump it or be a grass.

A situation that I'm not happy about but neither am I happy about having to shell out money to do simple jobs that i've been doing for over 30 years.

So, it's twisted logic if that helps :-(

 

[professional]

If safety critical equipment was only available to individually licensed sparks (e.g. c/u's, rcd's, mcbs and CABLE, and wholesalers could only sell via credit accounts, many of the present loopholes would be closed.

Unfortunately, an individual licensing system would mean many within the industry would no longer be able to pretend to be sparks and would have to undergo meaningful TRAINING. I'm sure they would have no problem with the practical aspects of such a regime since self-teaching (at the customer's expense) has been such a boon to the trade.......?

 

[green-hornet]

Some very interesting points, and views.

We all know that as with any rushed law, loopholes are certain.

Most householders now know of part p, when any application is put forward to building control the written guidlines are given to the householder.

However most householders are then misled by cheapskate builders, and due to the recession this has become more and more prevelant.

Most householders want the cheapest job they can get to save some money, the financial implications long term are not even concidered at this time.

Some electricians will do cash jobs, and fit new cu's without certs or notification because they want to feed their family another week. Others will sign off work they have not done.

I myself would say that that kind of action destroyes the credibility of all electricians and should be stopped from happening, but this is a law that can never be enforced, unless anything dangerous is found.

I did a survey last year on a house that had been rewired, with no certs and no notification. The building inspector was with me and took photographs.

I found about 18 infringements, but the killer question I was asked was is it dangerous?

I had to answer truthfully and say no, the electrician was reported but no action was taken any further.

Now to me personally I thought it was dangerous to let an idiot loose on a persons home, but in court that is not an excuse for prosecution.

I do not do many houses now, I can never do a full rewire for

 

[gselectrical]

Think I'm going to be getting a list of names together and contacting my scheme provider. I'm fed up with these idiots costing me work.

Here, here

 

[gselectrical]

Some very interesting points, and views.We all know that as with any rushed law, loopholes are certain.

Most householders now know of part p, when any application is put forward to building control the written guidlines are given to the householder.

However most householders are then misled by cheapskate builders, and due to the recession this has become more and more prevelant.

Most householders want the cheapest job they can get to save some money, the financial implications long term are not even concidered at this time.

Some electricians will do cash jobs, and fit new cu's without certs or notification because they want to feed their family another week. Others will sign off work they have not done.

I myself would say that that kind of action destroyes the credibility of all electricians and should be stopped from happening, but this is a law that can never be enforced, unless anything dangerous is found.

I did a survey last year on a house that had been rewired, with no certs and no notification. The building inspector was with me and took photographs.

I found about 18 infringements, but the killer question I was asked was is it dangerous?

I had to answer truthfully and say no, the electrician was reported but no action was taken any further.

Now to me personally I thought it was dangerous to let an idiot loose on a persons home, but in court that is not an excuse for prosecution.

I do not do many houses now, I can never do a full rewire for

 

[maselec]

I would say that 75% of my customers do not know anything about Part P.

At least and even when your explaining it a lot aren't really listening, they're just waiting for the estimate.

Though a lot of people aren't comfortable or used to dealing with these issues I still reserve my sympathy for only a few customers. A middle aged single woman who has been ripped off, yet still accepts your price, and trusts you I have every sympathy for. Flash, arrogant plonker in his new build, four bed detached, asking every question under the sun and wanting

 

[ianmacd]

So, if a HOUSEHOLDER has a new CU fitted (knowingly or not) by a "cowboy" who didn't notify it, then it makes YOU feel better to give the HOUSEHOLDER a lot of grief does it?In most cases I suspect the householder is not to blame. They probably don't know what does and does not need notifying and assume an "electrician" will do everything properly.

I just want to understand your logic in causing grief to the householder, not the cowboy electrician who did the job.

Do you think it will make the householder choose a better electrician next time?

The householder is always to blame if Part P is ignored as its their responcibility to ensure any work they order/pay for is done to building regs.

 

[binky]

Interestingly the biggest surprise we may find is that Insurance companies are fully aware of the building regulations and part p, and may be the only people able and willing to enforce the regulations, by refusing to pay out any claims where they find no certificates available.

.

Concurr completely, I beleive that it is only the insurance companies that can really enforce the legislation, though it is a bit like bolting the door after the horse has bolted. The whole thing lacks 'carrot' ie an incentive to do things right such as reduced insurance premiums for places that have been inspected and works that are properly certified, not that this will completely stop the cowboys, but it certainly would help. It doesn't help having multiple registration bodies either, it lacks the visibilty/clarity of say Corgi which became a household name for members of the public.

 

[exbdc]

Corgi only became a household name because there was only one body. If this had happened in the electrical industry maybe there wouldn't be the confusion there is today with each scheme provider promoting their own self-interest.

The only solution would be for niceic, napit, elecsa et al to merge but it'll never happen.