Responsible or not

[rainydays]

I have been asked to install a new ring main and lighting in someones kitchen, which is getting a re-fit. All legit and above board through building control etc.

I do not want to accept responsibility for the existing installation circuits, that have been worked upon by the home owner.

My question is: if you remove some socket outlets and remove some lighting points and then terminate the cables into appropriate enclosures, which will not be accecible for inspection, then would you then become responsible for the circuits, which you have removed the accessories from?

 

[Lurch]

My question is: if you remove some socket outlets and remove some lighting points and then terminate the cables into appropriate enclosures, which will not be accecible for inspection, then would you then become responsible for the circuits, which you have removed the accessories from?

To some extent, although if it really is worthy of running away from I'd make a point of testing the circuit and noting down all the irregularities on the certificate.

 

[rainydays]

The owner told me that he had added sockets to the circuit in the past, but i believe they are spurs off spurs from what he told me. Thats why i did not want to touch the existing.

 

[spinlondon]

When making an alteration or addition, the Certificate should detail the extent of that alteration or addition, and will only apply to that which is covered by the Certificate.

When signing the Certificate, you are stating that the work covered by that Certificate complies with BS7671.

Any part of the existing circuit that does not meet the requirements of BS7671 should where reasonably practicable be noted under comments on existing installation. As should any defects observed in the rest of the installation.

This does not mean that you have to test the rest of the installation, but if you were to notice something, like for instance a broken socket, a metal fixture on a lighting circuit that does not have a CPC or lack of RCD pritection. You should note it on the Certificate.

Any cable termination that is made using a screw terminal, must be accessible, in order to comply with BS7671.

 

[rainydays]

I understand, so if i remove a socket outlet and terminate the cable safely i can just list this on the certificate. Would i have to test the circuit that i removed the socket outlet from.

 

[Lurch]

I understand, so if i remove a socket outlet and terminate the cable safely i can just list this on the certificate. Would i have to test the circuit that i removed the socket outlet from.

Yes, as you have altered the circuit.

 

[rainydays]

Sort of defeats the object of the new circuit then i think. Could be a very messy can of worms

 

[Lurch]

Well yes, sort of. If the existing circuit is known to be dodgy I'd disconnect, join and repower as mentioned. As you know the circuit isn't right I'd make a point of testing the whole thing reasonably thoroughly so you can note down all the dodginess officially. Then, at any point in the future, your wiring is always good as you have run yours in new.

When I was doing work for a kitchen co I used to do pretty much exactly that, saves something from the existing installation coming back to bite me in the arse later.

 

[spinlondon]

Don't quite understand what it is you are doing.

If you are installing a new circuit, then the new circuit should be I&T'd, and an EIC should be issued.

If you are adding to an existing circuit, then the addition has to comply with BS7671, a MWC should be issued and the essential tests listed in the notes should be conducted. Any defects in the existing installation that affect your test results to such an extent that they do not meet he requirements of BS7671 would have to rectified.

Defects in the existing circuits such as lack of RCD protection for sockets or cables conceled in walls would not have to be rectified.

You will not have to conduct any tests to existing sockets.

It might be that the easiest way for your addition to comply with the RCD protection requirements would be to replace the circuit MCB with an RCBO at the board. In which case the existing circuit will now benefit from RCD protection.

If you are removing a socket from a ring, and then re-connecting the legs of the ring using what ever method of termination you desire, you do not have to test the existing circuit. If the termination is by screw terminals, it will have to be accessible.

 

[tom1]

i think he is putting in a new kitchen ring, removing the old kitchen sockets and wants to know were he stands with the old circuit as its dodgy in places.

 

[rainydays]

You are bang on the money tom1.

I did not want to add anything to existing circuits in response to spinlondon, i wanted to strip out the accessory such as the socket outlets and lights in the area concerned, terminate the cables and then start afresh with a new install. Removing the cables completely is not an option as its part of the house ring and lighting circuit and there is laminate floor above.

 

[spinlondon]

I take it, that these cables will remain live, and that you intend to keep the ring, just without these sockets?

Do you intend that the joints will then be plastered or decorated over?

This can be done, I would suggest using heat shrink and insulated crimps.

If this is what you intend, I would further suggest that you put this ring on an RCD, as the cables may no longer be in safe zones.

There are some maintenance free terminals about such as wagos. I haven't any experience of them, so do not know if they can be embedded in plaster.

 

[niceguy]

I take it, that these cables will remain live, and that you intend to keep the ring, just without these sockets?Do you intend that the joints will then be plastered or decorated over?

This can be done, I would suggest using heat shrink and insulated crimps.

If this is what you intend, I would further suggest that you put this ring on an RCD, as the cables may no longer be in safe zones.

RCD's do not allow cables to be run out of zones unprotected. headbang

 

[kme]

Agreed! The cables, if there is no visible accessory in line (vertical / horizontal) would require terminating AT LEAST within 150mm of the ceiling, but preferably above it.

Remember the joints must be soldered/brazed / compressed

KME

 

[rainydays]

I was intending to leave the cables terminated above the ceiling

 

[batty]

I was intending to leave the cables terminated above the ceiling

When doing kitchens I like to put new circuit in. I would cut cables off and put them in ceiling in water proof box with wagos that way you would not need to get to them.

 

[Bez]

How about these

http://http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

 

[batty]

How about thesehttp://http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

Not tried them took me long enough to start using wagos.

 

[Bez]

Not tried them took me long enough to start using wagos.

They're a bit pricey compared to standard pushfits but handy to keep a couple on the van to get you out of a hole.

 

[Lurch]

How about thesehttp://http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

Link fail.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

Not seen those, something else to stock up on and chuck in the 'random useful bits' box.