Responsible or not

[spinlondon]

RCD's do not allow cables to be run out of zones unprotected. headbang

You can run cables outside of zones without RCD protection.

The requirements for RCD protection only applies to cables conceled in a wall at a depth less than 50mm, or if there are structural metal parts in the wall (see Regulation 552.6.6/7/8).

 

[Apache]

You can run cables outside of zones without RCD protection.

Really?

:_|

 

[Andy™]

Really? :_|

yes. provided they are in earthed steel conduit, SWA, pyro etc.

this also applied under 16th ed, if the cable wasnt in a safe zone

 

[Apache]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Andy™]

i see what you mean patch. in this case, adding an RCD does not allow you to go out of the safe zone

 

[spinlondon]

If you read Regulations 552.6.6/7, you will note that you are only required to provide RCD protection to cables that are in safe zones.

You will also note that this requirement only applies to cables conceled in walls and partitions at a depth less than 50mm.

Now the question that the OP asked, is whether he is responsible for a circuit if he removes accessories. He then asked whether he needs to I&T the existing circuit after removing those accessories.

IMHO the OP is not responsible for the existing circuit, his only responsibility is to ensure that his alteration complies with BS7671, and does not impair the safety of the existing installation (see Regulation 610.4).

Does the removal of an accessory comply with BS7671? IMHO yes.

Does the joining of cables comply with BS7671? Again yes.

Does conceling a joint comply with BS7671? Only if the requirements of Regulation 526.3 are met.

Would doing any of these impair the safety of the installation? IMHO yes, because the cables would now not be within safe zones.

Would the provision of RCD protection for these cables restore the impaired safety of this installation? I believe so.

To state that RCDs do not allow cables to be run outside of safe zones, is incorrect.

As to whether the OP is required to I&T the existing circuit, he is required to conduct relevant I&T to the work he has done.

IMHO that would be to ensure the joint is sound, that there is continuity and that polarity has not been reversed.

 

[niceguy]

If you read Regulations 552.6.6/7, you will note that you are only required to provide RCD protection to cables that are in safe zones.You will also note that this requirement only applies to cables conceled in walls and partitions at a depth less than 50mm.

Now the question that the OP asked, is whether he is responsible for a circuit if he removes accessories. He then asked whether he needs to I&T the existing circuit after removing those accessories.

IMHO the OP is not responsible for the existing circuit, his only responsibility is to ensure that his alteration complies with BS7671, and does not impair the safety of the existing installation (see Regulation 610.4).

Does the removal of an accessory comply with BS7671? IMHO yes.

Does the joining of cables comply with BS7671? Again yes.

Does conceling a joint comply with BS7671? Only if the requirements of Regulation 526.3 are met.

Would doing any of these impair the safety of the installation? IMHO yes, because the cables would now not be within safe zones.

Would the provision of RCD protection for these cables restore the impaired safety of this installation? I believe so.

To state that RCDs do not allow cables to be run outside of safe zones, is incorrect.

As to whether the OP is required to I&T the existing circuit, he is required to conduct relevant I&T to the work he has done.

IMHO that would be to ensure the joint is sound, that there is continuity and that polarity has not been reversed.

I think you must be using a different regs book to everyone else then.

Cables are NOT permitted to be run out of zones UNLESS they are in earthed steel conduit OR at a depth of 50mm from the wall surface. RCD protection does not even come into it.

Are you a practising electrician??

Would YOU remove an accessory, joint the cables and then bury it in the wall leaving the cables in situ?

I know for sure that i wouldnt even dream of doing such a thing.

That is downright dangerous and extremely bad workmanship.

I have just done a kitchen refurb where a new RFC was installed and the existing circuit had accessories removed, cables pulled through up to ceiling and jointed.

I know with that, i can sleep well at night.

 

[spinlondon]

I think you must be using a different regs book to everyone else then.I use the BS7671, which do you use?

Cables are NOT permitted to be run out of zones UNLESS they are in earthed steel conduit OR at a depth of 50mm from the wall surface. RCD protection does not even come into it.

Is there a Regulation for this, and could you please quote it?

Are you a practising electrician??

Would YOU remove an accessory, joint the cables and then bury it in the wall leaving the cables in situ?

Perhaps, is there a reason why I couldn't?

I know for sure that i wouldnt even dream of doing such a thing.

Why not, is there a regulation prohibiting this?

That is downright dangerous and extremely bad workmanship.

Is it, could you explain why?

I have just done a kitchen refurb where a new RFC was installed and the existing circuit had accessories removed, cables pulled through up to ceiling and jointed.

I know with that, i can sleep well at night.

Have you ever actually read the Regulations?

The Regulation pertaining to cables concealed in walls and partitions refers to cables that are at a depth that is less than 50mm.

This is not a new thing, the Regulation in the 16th also only refered to cables that are at a depth less than 50mm.

If you disagree with my opinion, could you at least have the decency to explain your reasons for disagreeing?

I have taken the trouble to explain myself, quoting Regulation numbers where appropriate. Why can't you?

 

[niceguy]

Have you ever actually read the Regulations?Yes i have, and i actually understand them

The Regulation pertaining to cables concealed in walls and partitions refers to cables that are at a depth that is less than 50mm.

Which i think you will find most installations are less than 50mm

This is not a new thing, the Regulation in the 16th also only refered to cables that are at a depth less than 50mm.

See above

If you disagree with my opinion, could you at least have the decency to explain your reasons for disagreeing?

To be honest, i shouldnt really have to as i am not the only member to point this out.

I have taken the trouble to explain myself, quoting Regulation numbers where appropriate. Why can't you?

I am not one for spouting reg nos as i know what should and shouldnt be done in most situations without having to look it up every time.

I know that there are various guides etc etc that very clearly show permitted zones and explain them.

As i said, leaving live cables buried in a wall with no accessory or steel conduit is just downright dangerous regardless of whether there is an RCD.

If you look in the regs book you will find it states that RCD's are for ADDITIONAL and not as a SOLE means of protection.

Therefore, this applies to ANY cable buried less than etc etc or not in etc etc, however zones should still be adhered to.

I couldnt tell you a reg as i cant be bothered to look it up.

I just know.

 

[spinlondon]

So you are unable, or unwilling to produce evidence to support your arguments or claims.

I don't need to refer to the Regulations every time I do something.

However when I disagree with something someone has said, then I have a tendancy to back my arguments up with references to the Regulations.

You may not be the only member disagreeing with me.

However, they have at least had the decency to explain their reasoning.

I know that leaving live cables buried in walls is dangerous, which is why I suggested the additional protection of an RCD.

Adhere to the zones by all means, don't state that it must be done to comply with the Regs. because it just ain't so.

Don't bother looking up a Reg. as there isn't one.

 

[Bez]

The long and short of it is:

Cables maybe run outside of zones if they meet any one of the other four requirements of 522.6.6

Shake hands now guys

 

[Apache]

The long and short of it is:Cables maybe run outside of zones if they meet any one of the other four requirements of 522.6.6

Shake hands now guys

Would you mind staing the four requirements in 522.6.6 for those without a BRB?

Is this the earthed conduit etc?

 

[Bez]

Patch, you're making me type

ok then, give me ten minutes, and if someone beats me to it I won't be happy! X(

 

[Bez]

A cable concealed in a wall or partition at a depth of less than 50mm from the surface of the wall or partition shall :

(i) incorparate an earthed metallic covering which complies with the requirements of these regulations for a protective conductor of the circuit concerned, the cable complying with BS 5467, 6346, 6724, 7846, BS EN 60702-1 or BS 8436 OR

(ii) be enclosed in earthed conduit complying with BS EN 61386 and satisfying and satisfying the requirements of these regulations for a protective conductor OR

(iii) be enclosed in earthed trunking or ducting complying with BS EN 50085 and satisfying the requirements of these regulations for a protective conductor OR

(iv) be mechanically protected against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the cable by nails, screws and the like.

 

[niceguy]

And where does it state that you can use an RCD to protect cables instead of mechanical protection out of zones???

Oh, theres a thing. It doesnt.

Bez, we are referring to using RCD as a sole means of protection for buried cables out of zones.

I cant understand why, that over a year on people are STILL getting this wrong.

Ill break it down simple.

If a cable is buried less than 50mm AND in a safe zone then all that is required for additional protection is an RCD.

If a cable is out of safe zones then it needs to be installed greater than 50mm etc OR installed in some form of mechanical protection. This then negates the need for RCD unless its a socket outlet blah blah....

You CANNOT have a cable out of zones with just RCD protection.

Maybe a read of this may help:

http://www.esc.org.uk/forum/RCDversionFlowchart.pdf

 

[kme]

Ermmm `scuse me.

I haven`t got the BRB in the house; though may have to get it later.

Bez - that doesn`t mention being in or out of safe zones at any point. I`m not prolonging the argument here, as I agree with you and `pache regarding this - just curious?

 

[Apache]

Thanks Bez.

Scoob sent too!

 

[Lurch]

Bez - that doesn`t mention being in or out of safe zones at any point. I`m not prolonging the argument here, as I agree with you and `pache regarding this - just curious?

I think this is drifting in and out of being directly related to the original point of contention. From my rescnning of it the original thing was that removing a socket, and therefore leaving a cable out of a safe zone would not comply even if it had an RCD on it, unless it was in an earthed sheath or >50mm deep. The running of the cable outside of the safe zone is indirectly answered by the above I think, although I could be wrong.

 

[niceguy]

I think this is drifting in and out of being directly related to the original point of contention. From my rescnning of it the original thing was that removing a socket, and therefore leaving a cable out of a safe zone would not comply even if it had an RCD on it, unless it was in an earthed sheath or >50mm deep. The running of the cable outside of the safe zone is indirectly answered by the above I think, although I could be wrong.

Thank GOD someone is listening :^O

 

[Bez]

Ermmm `scuse me.I haven`t got the BRB in the house; though may have to get it later.

Bez - that doesn`t mention being in or out of safe zones at any point. I`m not prolonging the argument here, as I agree with you and `pache regarding this - just curious?

Running the cable in the zones is the fifth option if you can't meet any of the other four

see my post at the top of this page