Rewiring necessary?

[NozSpark]

I've just been thinking about this thread..

If the installation is from the early 60's then it might be VIR (rubber) wiring or it may be imperial PVC that's suffering from "green goo" (plasticiser migration).

You'll be best off getting a second or third opinion anyway so that you can compare their prices.

Also if I had a house that I was renting out then I'd make sure that everything (not only the electrics) was spot on, then you'll get fewer callouts to the property for problems and you also have a good base line for any future arguments about the condition of the property.

Do it right and do it once, bodge it and you'll be forever bodging it together.

 

[ballamory]

Thanks everyone for all the opinions.

The quote from the electrician has come back at 3k inc VAT for the rewire. I'm asking for further information about why he thinks a complete rewire is necessary.

I'm happy to get inspections done to find out what really is safe and what isn't. I was just somewhat surprised that someone can conclude that a complete rewire is really necessary after spending just 15 minutes in the property, and looking at one light socket.

It's rather like taking a car to a garage - you usually get given a long list of things that could be improved on your vehicle, and most people choose to only fix the essential things. Why? Because they accept from the outset that they aren't driving a brand new vehicle, and that some things aren't going to work on it as well as they could. It would simply cost too much money to put the car in an 'as new' state. Of course, in some cases there's also the suspicion that garages set out to find as many things wrong as they can, to try and persuade you to part with some extra cash.

If there are genuine safety reasons why things should be improved in the house, obviously they need to be looked at. But I would like a little more persuasive argument than 'it's old, so it's about time you spent some more money on it'. The electricity functions, there are no wires hanging out of walls, or any other obvious problems. If there are corroded wires or faulty insulation, or whatever, fine, but wouldn't it be sensible to actually look for these things first, rather than just conclude - yep, complete rewire required? There's a big difference between paying 600 and 3000 pounds, for something that won't be obviously functionally improved afterwards.

 

[batty]

Just get some more estimates and opinions from other electricians without seeing your wiring it will be very differcult to judge what is needed.

 

[steptoe]

a fairly good judgement can be made within 1/2 an hour as to whether further investigation is needed or a rewire would be a better option,

quite often I will go to do a PIR on a property only to call it a day after an hour or so, (perhaps even half an hour) and inform the client that they are wasting money having an inspection done as the sheer volume and type of faults I am finding will not even get them a decent test completed,

and a rewire would be a more prudent consideration.

 

[IzzyS]

If there are genuine safety reasons why things should be improved in the house, obviously they need to be looked at. But I would like a little more persuasive argument than 'it's old, so it's about time you spent some more money on it'. The electricity functions, there are no wires hanging out of walls, or any other obvious problems. If there are corroded wires or faulty insulation, or whatever, fine, but wouldn't it be sensible to actually look for these things first, rather than just conclude - yep, complete rewire required? There's a big difference between paying 600 and 3000 pounds, for something that won't be obviously functionally improved afterwards.

That's why every other reply is advising you do pay for an Electrical Installation Condition Report. Then you will know for definite. The lights may well light, and the sockets may well provide power to make the vacuum cleaner vacuum, but that's no indication that the installation, or its users (your tenants), are safe.

Perhaps the electrician's years of training and experience allow him to spot an unsafe installation in 15 mins. I'm fairly sure I could too, BUT an EICR will give you the hard facts in black and white.

If you pay out

 

[Couleddie]

I've just had the exact same situation with a friend who buys to let. He looked at (and eventually bought) a property which he was advised to have the wiring checked. From his description (backed up with photos)of toggle switches on wooden blocks, metal fuse boxes with throw switches, rubber and braided cable, ivory coloured switches, I advised him that at the very least the lighting circuits would need rewiring. As the property was 3 hours away I reserved a weekend and went armed with a vehicle full of tools. After 26 hours work over 2 days the house got two new lighting circuits, one ring, one radial, a conversion from radial to ring for kitchen, bonding, new consumer unit and a complete test. Cabling for new circuits and some switch drops were run in trunking to save redecoration and hence, more expense. As he is a good friend we agreed on a mutually acceptable labour charge and he bought the materials on my trade account. Total cost

 

[Andy™]

I'm happy to get inspections done to find out what really is safe and what isn't. I was just somewhat surprised that someone can conclude that a complete rewire is really necessary after spending just 15 minutes in the property, and looking at one light socket.

i could probably tell you if a re-wire was a good idea or not within 5 minutes, same as most other members here

 

[steptoe]

I've just had the exact same situation with a friend who buys to let. He looked at (and eventually bought) a property which he was advised to have the wiring checked. From his description (backed up with photos)of toggle switches on wooden blocks, metal fuse boxes with throw switches, rubber and braided cable, ivory coloured switches, I advised him that at the very least the lighting circuits would need rewiring. As the property was 3 hours away I reserved a weekend and went armed with a vehicle full of tools. After 26 hours work over 2 days the house got two new lighting circuits, one ring, one radial, a conversion from radial to ring for kitchen, bonding, new consumer unit and a complete test. Cabling for new circuits and some switch drops were run in trunking to save redecoration and hence, more expense. As he is a good friend we agreed on a mutually acceptable labour charge and he bought the materials on my trade account. Total cost

 

[ProDave]

but do you really think that is a realistic price to be telling someone that they could be getting a rewire for?there are a lot of exceptions in your example!

I personally would even entertain going to look at any sort of house for that sort of money being offered.

+1

That was definitely a "mates rates" job. If you work your socks off like that for so little money, then you are making hard work of earning a living.

 

[ballamory]

Had a reply from the electrician:

"The problem with sockets is the earth in there circuit is a small earth and if fault occurs it cannot take the fault current which then my cause big problem. as for not having certificate if god forbid something happens to your tennant they will sue you and you do not have a leg to stand on. when we or whoever does kitchen the certificate will ask about existing and we would have to put down needs rewire which will be back on you."

Again, I'm not sure how he knows what 'size' the earth is, given that he didn't actually look at any of the sockets, or perform any tests.

So again gentlemen, what do you think? I'm sure the house wasn't designed to be unsafe originally, so have safety standards shifted so much that the earthing of those days is now considered ' too small'?

It reminds me very much of Nationwide Autocentres, who always seem to find something wrong with your brakes when you take your car in there. 'Of course, if you want to take the risk....'

I also feel that 3K is excessive for a rewire if I wanted to go down that route. Any amazingly, he suggested that I would be 'saving money' by not having the cables for the sockets cut into the walls, but run down the corners of the room. Lord knows what he would want to charge if I actually wanted him to cut channels and fill them in, and replaster.

I suspect at the very least, I'm going to need to get some more quotes. I can't believe this is the best value on offer.

 

[steptoe]

In relation to your car, you have an almost classic that needs a full restoration.

He would know the size of the earth by the age of the cable, and in your case very old imperial cable.

3K does seem high, but it depends a lot on your actual house and layout, your location, and a few other variables.

Get another couple of quotes, and make sure they are like for like.

 

[ProDave]

Had a reply from the electrician:"The problem with sockets is the earth in there circuit is a small earth and if fault occurs it cannot take the fault current which then my cause big problem. as for not having certificate if god forbid something happens to your tennant they will sue you and you do not have a leg to stand on. when we or whoever does kitchen the certificate will ask about existing and we would have to put down needs rewire which will be back on you."

I feel he's being harsh. Wiring regs are not retrospective, so if it complied when installed it will be okay to keep it if in good order. Again I urge you to get the opinion of another sparks who actually takes the cover off a socket or the fuse box to look at the size and type of cable.

Re the kitchen work, they only have to issue a certificate for what they do, they don't have a right to automatically condemn everything else.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was made at 15:34 ----------

Any amazingly, he suggested that I would be 'saving money' by not having the cables for the sockets cut into the walls, but run down the corners of the room. Lord knows what he would want to charge if I actually wanted him to cut channels and fill them in, and replaster.

I don't see what he's getting at there. Whether you run a cable down the corner, or straight down to a socket makes no difference, you still have to make good. In any case it's much more normal to run a cable UP to a socket, so there's less making good to do.

Remember, this is (or might be) a rewire, so you are not constrained by building regs, so can have the sockets quite low down to reduce the amount of chasing and patching up to do.

 

[Andy™]

Had a reply from the electrician:"The problem with sockets is the earth in there circuit is a small earth and if fault occurs it cannot take the fault current which then my cause big problem. as for not having certificate if god forbid something happens to your tennant they will sue you and you do not have a leg to stand on. when we or whoever does kitchen the certificate will ask about existing and we would have to put down needs rewire which will be back on you."

Again, I'm not sure how he knows what 'size' the earth is, given that he didn't actually look at any of the sockets, or perform any tests.

So again gentlemen, what do you think? I'm sure the house wasn't designed to be unsafe originally, so have safety standards shifted so much that the earthing of those days is now considered ' too small'?

It reminds me very much of Nationwide Autocentres, who always seem to find something wrong with your brakes when you take your car in there. 'Of course, if you want to take the risk....'

I also feel that 3K is excessive for a rewire if I wanted to go down that route. Any amazingly, he suggested that I would be 'saving money' by not having the cables for the sockets cut into the walls, but run down the corners of the room. Lord knows what he would want to charge if I actually wanted him to cut channels and fill them in, and replaster.

I suspect at the very least, I'm going to need to get some more quotes. I can't believe this is the best value on offer.

there is an issue with older 2.5 having a 1mm earth. this is undersized to be used with a 30a 3036 (and can be a problem), but this doesnt mean a re-wire. a 32a 60898 could be used instead of a 30a 3036, or you could downrate the 3036 to a 20a.

but that assumes you have 3036 fuses, you may have 1361

 

[batty]

Had a reply from the electrician:"The problem with sockets is the earth in there circuit is a small earth and if fault occurs it cannot take the fault current which then my cause big problem. as for not having certificate if god forbid something happens to your tennant they will sue you and you do not have a leg to stand on. when we or whoever does kitchen the certificate will ask about existing and we would have to put down needs rewire which will be back on you."

Again, I'm not sure how he knows what 'size' the earth is, given that he didn't actually look at any of the sockets, or perform any tests.

So again gentlemen, what do you think? I'm sure the house wasn't designed to be unsafe originally, so have safety standards shifted so much that the earthing of those days is now considered ' too small'?

It reminds me very much of Nationwide Autocentres, who always seem to find something wrong with your brakes when you take your car in there. 'Of course, if you want to take the risk....'

I also feel that 3K is excessive for a rewire if I wanted to go down that route. Any amazingly, he suggested that I would be 'saving money' by not having the cables for the sockets cut into the walls, but run down the corners of the room. Lord knows what he would want to charge if I actually wanted him to cut channels and fill them in, and replaster.

I suspect at the very least, I'm going to need to get some more quotes. I can't believe this is the best value on offer.

Keep up Ballamory I did tell you a few days ago to get a few quotes.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

3K is cheap. I dont know your house but we are doing a 3 bed semi (vacant) for

 

[ballamory]

Once again, thanks everyone for all the responses.

I've started looking around for other quotes, and I'm already getting offers that seem much more reasonable than 3K for the full rewire. Also, nearly all of them are to a higher spec (some considerably) than the original electrician was offering.

So it looks like it really does pay to shop around when it comes to electrical work.

Many thanks for the advice of all the members of the board - I agree that rewire is the safest and best option, it was just a matter of acquiring enough information to be able to judge what represents good value for money.

 

[Theorysparky]

Just a point

 

[Chr!s]

Hello all,I'm currently renovating a house for the rental market, and I'm about to have the kitchen rebuilt. The builder has said that some electrical work needs doing in the house to support the new kitchen, so we asked an electrician to pop around today and take a look.

The house dates from the early 1960s, and from looking at the (rather antiquated) original fuse box and unscrewing one of lighting switches, the electrician essentially seems to think the house needs a complete rewire. This is because he discovered that the lighting ring is not earthed, which he believes should be completely replaced in order to get an electrical safety certificate. He's also proposing to run new sockets to each room in the house, along the corners of the rooms.

Whilst I am happy to get some work done on the electrical side, the renovation is already costing more than I'd hoped, so I'd rather avoid any unnecessary expenses. Although I haven't received a quote yet from him, a complete rewiring sounds like it going to be expensive.

From a bit of research on the Internet, it sounds as though an electrical safety certificate isn't actually a legal requirement from landlords at the moment, although I do understand landlords have an obligation to provide a safe property for people to live in.

What I'd like to know is:

I would disagree,

Electrical Safety in Rental Property - England & Wales

http://www.arla.co.uk/media/60323/ESC-landlordsGuide.pdf

Is it essential to replace the wiring on the lighting ring, in other words is the exisiting ring potentially unsafe by modern standards?

Does the absence of an earth in the lighting ring imply the sockets are also unearthed? He didn't actually check those. If the sockets turns out to be earthed, why would they need replacing?

What sort of sum of money would be resonable to do these tasks?

There is no direct statutory requirement for Electrical inspection and Testing, though there is a requirement for it to be safe and maintained. How do we ensure that the electrical system is safe, simple we have the installation Inspected and Tested by a competent electrician at regular intervals, and all work is carried out by a registered competent electrician. Do not fall into the trap of thinking you have no LEGAL OBLIGATION, you do.

 

[ballamory]

I'm not arguing that you don't have a legal obligation to keep you tenants safe.

The point is that, as I understand it, the law doesn't state that safe = certificate.

Possibly that's because some electricians seem to have the attitude that they can refuse to give out a certificate, regardless of the state of the wiring, unless you hand them a big wodge of cash. Spreading scare stories about how you will get your pants sued off if something goes wrong doesn't help either. No-one wants anyone to get hurt - but I don't want to fund someone's all expenses paid holiday to Barbados either.

 

[Chr!s]

I'm not arguing that you don't have a legal obligation to keep you tenants safe.The point is that, as I understand it, the law doesn't state that safe = certificate.

No, correct, but in the eyes of the Law how are YOU going to be to demonstrate that all reasonable steps have been taken to ensure safety? Documentation would be a good way don't you think?

Possibly that's because some electricians seem to have the attitude that they can refuse to give out a certificate, regardless of the state of the wiring, unless you hand them a big wodge of cash. Spreading scare stories about how you will get your pants sued off if something goes wrong doesn't help either. No-one wants anyone to get hurt - but I don't want to fund someone's all expenses paid holiday to Barbados either.

Think of your Tenants handing you over their wads of cash for your holiday in Barbados, the least you can do is ensure their safety.

I think most reputable electricians wouldn't charge that much, unfortunately there's going to be some cost. At the end of the day its just a report indicating the systems condition for continued service.

As long as there is no remedial work required it should be quite reasonable. Consider your insurance too.

Its about protecting your Tenant's and yourself, i know what i would do.