Ring or radial please?

[Retired]

EDIT : most electricians are not permitted to sign off 3rd party work, and most are unwilling to anyway.

Hi,

Many thanks guys for your replies. I was interested to see steptoe's Edit shown above especially the "not permitted"? Just curious steptoe no offence meant nor intended in any way?

I still retain the original lump of mounting board which I'm sure will burn easily if thrown on a fire. If this is a problem then it will be very easy to cut out a section of the new mounting board and reinstall the original mounting board.

Thanks for asking kerching; "why disconnect from the meter"? the original tails were 16mm so I upgraded to 25mm this being the only reason.

Thanks Doc H; your suggestions show why it pays to get an electrician in the electrician will be up to date on best installation; buying the metal clad fully compliant CU I thought I had done the right thing; the two RCD's are a big step up from the original CU but obviously now it could have been improved upon. Where should the stickers have been placed please?

My original question was Ring or radial and I expanded on why which I'm now glad I did because I've not only learned a great deal but this is a job I'll never be doing again because in ignorance I hadn't realized there were so many restrictive rules and regulations now in force.

I'll complete the job then get it all tested and have made good any omissions or errors on my part to bring the job up to code; I will update on any future details and hope my story will put off any novices from even thinking about changing a CU; it's over 25 years ago I replaced lots of old fuse boxes installing then an up to date CU and over the 25 years not a bit of trouble but in future I'll get an electrician in where paperwork is required. 

No problem at all kerching if you seem a bit harsh; I understand what you mean and just looking back over this thread see how much information it has created; I wonder just how many do actually change a CU but keep their head down? 

Lots of DIY'ers install gas central heating on a labour only basis then call in a Corgi inspector to pass it off?

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[Kurt]

Hi,

Many thanks guys for your replies. I was interested to see steptoe's Edit shown above especially the "not permitted"? Just curious steptoe no offence meant nor intended in any way?

I still retain the original lump of mounting board which I'm sure will burn easily if thrown on a fire. If this is a problem then it will be very easy to cut out a section of the new mounting board and reinstall the original mounting board.

Thanks for asking kerching; "why disconnect from the meter"? the original tails were 16mm so I upgraded to 25mm this being the only reason.

Thanks Doc H; your suggestions show why it pays to get an electrician in the electrician will be up to date on best installation; buying the metal clad fully compliant CU I thought I had done the right thing; the two RCD's are a big step up from the original CU but obviously now it could have been improved upon. Where should the stickers have been placed please?

My original question was Ring or radial and I expanded on why which I'm now glad I did because I've not only learned a great deal but this is a job I'll never be doing again because in ignorance I hadn't realized there were so many restrictive rules and regulations now in force.

I'll complete the job then get it all tested and have made good any omissions or errors on my part to bring the job up to code; I will update on any future details and hope my story will put off any novices from even thinking about changing a CU; it's over 25 years ago I replaced lots of old fuse boxes installing then an up to date CU and over the 25 years not a bit of trouble but in future I'll get an electrician in where paperwork is required. 

No problem at all kerching if you seem a bit harsh; I understand what you mean and just looking back over this thread see how much information it has created; I wonder just how many do actually change a CU but keep their head down? 

Lots of DIY'ers install gas central heating on a labour only basis then call in a Corgi inspector to pass it off?

Kind regards, Colin.

Wow, really. I am Gas Safe as well as registered electrician and i would be very concerned as the Gas safe guy could easily loose his licence, boilers etc need to b notified just like CUs and Gas Safe can come and inspect at anytime, anywhere they choose. I would not sign off a Gas job someone else did and i have only ever signed off two jobs in 7 years of electrical. One was a house re-wire done by a very competent apprentice (not working for me) and i could inspect every stage, the other was a bathroom fitter who needed RCD protection, he ran the cable i completed the install. I am with Napit which allows 3rd party sign offs but realistically you would need to be present before all the CU connections are made as the electrician will just have to pull them all out again to do the full tests. Just saying..

 

[steptoe]

@Retired

Most schemes (scams), as far as I am aware, don't allow their members to carry out 3rd party "sign offs" , those that do require further payments, and also a higher(different) insurance premium is liable also.

My scheme ( I think), does allow 3rd party sign off, I am not registered to do them, nor do I wish to be. 

I dread to think what the indemnity insurance premiums would be ,

 

[Kurt]

@Retired

Most schemes (scams), as far as I am aware, don't allow their members to carry out 3rd party "sign offs" , those that do require further payments, and also a higher(different) insurance premium is liable also.

My scheme ( I think), does allow 3rd party sign off, I am not registered to do them, nor do I wish to be. 

I dread to think what the indemnity insurance premiums would be ,

Peanuts.. ha ha . You ask how much to insure Gas, electrical with testing and Air con - That will make your eyes bleed......

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks guys for your replies.

A few years ago the government introduced a package for home owners wishing to sell their house in order to speed up all the legal side. I know these are no longer required up front but what was/is involved in inspecting both gas and electrical installations before a relevant certificate is issued?

Everything is now working regarding my CU installation; I'm awaiting some earth sleeving for the thick cooker earth then I can have a go at getting an electrician in to do the necessary tests; having installed our previous CU all those years ago I admit I hadn't a clue regulations were now so tight and I'm duly chastised for my actions which I won't repeat; in future I'll check what I'm allowed to do before doing it.

The only work on our bungalow I've never done is the central heating; 18 months ago we had a new Intergas combi boiler installed the installer doing a wonderful job and we are mightily impressed by this Intergas boiler; I was a member of a DIY forum so asked up front on the forum as to best boiler choice; pity I didn't join this electrical forum sooner though and ask similar questions then I would have definitely got an electrician in to install this CU.

Kind regards, Col.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Since 2005, Part-P of the building regulation in England requires some type of electrical work to have a building regulations compliance certificate issued to confirm it meets all the standards of BS7671 and building regulations. Replacing a consumer unit, or adding new circuits to an existing consumer unit are both such work requiring LABC notifications. The electrical certificate aspect requires a full set of test results for the modified circuits and the incoming supply and a signed declaration to confirm who has designed, installed inspected and tested the alterations. This document obviously carries some legal liabilities for the person who's name and address is in the box. Unless someone is very relaxed about what they accept responsibility for, not many competent electricians would even consider issuing you an Electrical installation certificate for your work.

There is an Electrical Installation Condition Report, (previously known as a Periodic Inspection Report), which is just an electricians opinion on whether an installation is satisfactory or unsatisfactory for continued use, this would involve testing a sample of accessories and circuits, and visually checking for obvious immediate dangers or potential hazards. A competent electrician could do an inspection on your work, but this is not the correct installation certificate which has been a basic requirement of BS7671 wiring regulations for new and alteration work for a very long time. Nor would an inspection report be appropriate for the issuing of the building regulations compliance certificate.

pity I didn't join this electrical forum sooner though and ask similar questions then I would have definitely got an electrician in to install this CU.

As you did join here on May29th yet you only replaced your CU on Wednesday, you have had ample time to ask and verify the legalities before attempting to change the CU. Personally I doubt you would have got anyone to install it for you, as it looks as though you consider the task to be easy and the regulations do not apply to you.  (Much like many un-insured drivers who haven't passed a driving test, but they are good, as they have been doing it for years without any problems.)  What you have done still does not equate with your earlier comments that money is not an issue and you want everything to be right and safe.

Doc H.

 

[Lurch]

Lots of DIY'ers install gas central heating on a labour only basis then call in a Corgi inspector to pass it off?

No, they don't. This is not and never has been legal. If you know someone who is doing this please inform Gas Safe (was Corgi, you're quite a few years out of date).

A few years ago the government introduced a package for home owners wishing to sell their house in order to speed up all the legal side. I know these are no longer required up front but what was/is involved in inspecting both gas and electrical installations before a relevant certificate is issued?

HIPS was basically a scam and was soon scrapped as nothing was worth the paper it was written on. Nothing was ever tested, and if it was it was all half arsed and paid for by the homeowner. It was a complete waste of time and money, but in this particular instance it would identify the fact that your house has a new consumer unit with no building control notification.

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Doc H for your explanation. I fully agree with you that I installed the CU on Wednesday by when it was becoming clear to me the new regulations but I wrongly assumed I could install the CU and obtain the correct paperwork as soon as the CU was installed. OK I made a mistake and have broken the law in doing so but I won't be leaving it like this and as I've said previously funds are not a problem and never have been so if I experience troubles in getting my work passed off and certified I'll employ an electrician to start from scratch if he/she has to; I don't think I'm above everyone else far from it otherwise it's possible I'd have just done the job and not joined this forum. I'm so used to doing everything it comes natural to me but times are changing and people like me are falling foul of the changes. Regarding thinking it easy to install my CU then yes guilty as charged because I had very little trouble indeed installing this CU with just one minor mistake regarding neutral bars. Yesterday the garage lights tripped both RCD's which initially puzzled me because the connections were correct regarding the circuit and had the old CU been used this would not have occurred; rather than start pulling the lighting circuit apart in the garage I left the mcb switched off whilst I gave it some thought; I was subjected at work to intensive Kaizen training so applied this training and this morning went into the garage disconnected the two neutrals from #5 on the left neutral bar and reconnected correctly into #5 on the right hand neutral bar; the lights then came straight on all without even touching a DMM or other electrical test equipment. The lights had been working OK before the new CU was installed so I was surprised when the RCD's tripped; all the lives and earths were correct. I've worked on far more complicated and higher voltage circuits than our house circuits and feel competent but it's been brought home to me quite forcibly gone are the days of installing a circuit and then getting an electrician in to check the circuit. The law as usual has loopholes; why can a total novice buy something like a new CU to play with whilst then coming down on the novice when something goes wrong; tie both ends up; only qualified electricians to install CU's etc and only qualified tradespeople or installation companies to buy such goods then it would cut people like me completely out. I've fallen foul of the many regulations  not fallen foul of the actual installation. 

Thanks Lurch; again legislation moves on; there's nothing to stop me buying a central heating boiler in fact there's nothing to stop me buying a huge chainsaw ; surely safety should encompass the lot not end up fire fighting? I've been open about my activities and by being so I've learned a great deal; the outcome will be safer circuits with more protection and the certificate will be a great deal more comprehensive than a more simple check by an electrician. 

Due to being so ill with dermatitis jobs have stacked up so I'll crack on with these but I will come back with an update to let you know how I get on with an electrician; I now want this job settled allowing me to move on. I'm once again in remission from the dermatitis; this most recent flare up has lasted just over three months but it's now wonderful to bend both my knees without discomfort or pain.

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[apprentice87]

Well, I think Colin did really well. Besides, anyone on here that claims they have never pulled the fuse is full of ****....

john..

 

[Murdoch]

Well, I think Colin did really well. Besides, anyone on here that claims they have never pulled the fuse is full of ****....

john..

If you are a scheme member, in a Scottish and southern area, it's perfectly OK to pull it

 

[Lurch]

I don't have a problem with Colin specifically, this is just another one of those "I like to do everything properly even though I don't seem to have grasped the basics of this project yet" threads. This forum is littered with them, we see them fairly regularly, the people making them think they are the first so some of us are a bit fed up of them, hence the seemingly short tempers.

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks guys for your replies which I appreciate.

I've never tried to hide or deceive anyone and perhaps I've been too open due to my ignorance; I've been a member of vintage radio forums for many years and have fully restored over 100 vintage radios also one vintage TV; I've also had articles published on the subject. When I state I like to do everything to the best of my ability I mean exactly that and go to great lengths not to make mistakes; safety is paramount to me not only to me personally but also others who may be affected by anything I do;

http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62371

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67298

I've wound many transformers; tuning coils and field windings; I even wound a 75kg transformer installing 3 phase 415V into my workshop for less than £120. I've made vintage capacitors and even made a wire wound potentiometer for a forum member; on the TV restoration alone voltages up to around 15,000V both AC/DC were present as I worked on the open chassis with the CRT hooked up on the bench. Vintage radio mains transformers easily have 750V on them then they are center tapped for the rectifier valve plus other windings for the valve heaters etc. I was taught by The National Coal Board over 50 years ago aged 16 how to connect to the supply big 3 phase motors and I was further taught high safety standards as a mining mechanical engineering apprentice working underground in a deep coal mine from the age of 15; legally 16 but the engineers took me underground to be a tool bag carrier.

I design and make my own machinery from scratch just having completed a 4hp circular saw bench; I've also restored many big industrial cast iron machines including upgrading their electrics adding modern motor and DOL starter both single & 3 phase.

When I adopted vintage radio as an hobby I quickly realized I needed 3 hands; one to hold the soldering iron; one to hold the solder and a third to hold the component being soldered; I dreamt up the idea of a mini coil winder having worked on a Philips radio which had tiny coils which were slipped over multiple connectors then soldered which I thought to be brilliant; my design adds the tiny coils directly onto the component;

http://golbornevintageradio.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php?thread-102.html

Since then the design has been copied many times and also I've made at least a dozen of these mini coil winders as gifts. Once I get into a project my enthusiasm and determination are without limit because I'll see a project through to the end and never ever quit however hard it becomes.

I'm a dinosaur of an age now sadly passed by being aged almost 70 and brought up with good manners and a powerful work ethic; I don't drink alcohol; don't smoke and don't do drugs; Bron and I haven't had an holiday away from home for the last 40 years; I've never been abroad nor been on a plane and I don't even know how to use a mobile phone. Our lives have been spent making our home and now we are enjoying all the benefits of doing without for so many years. My last job I started in 1977 as a wagon loader and 24 years later in 2000 retired from being in charge of three departments. I've been troubled by poor health all my life but although at times it puts me in hospital and slows me down it will not stop me. For the last forty years the only work never done by me at home has been with gas.

I don't think I'm above the law and I don't think I lord it over people I'm just a guy who is hard working but forever learning new skills; Bron is my best friend and my wife whom I love to bits and we do everything together; whilst I have Bron I have everything.

I pulled the mains fuse for my safety and in doing so I was aware I shouldn't be snipping the seal but I installed the previous CU over 25 years ago doing the job live; how many of you electricians can put their hand up and honestly say they have never snipped a seal to pull the mains fuse? I know its wrong but you electricians should know better than I? Please don't throw stones when I do it?

I started this electrical work quite a while ago but I've been troubled by poor health; I wasn't happy with tripping the workshop mcb whilst powering my new saw bench or big welder so decided at last to not only convert the workshop power socket to a "C" type mcb but to sort all the electrics out once and for all; I hope I'm not arrogant when I say I find household wiring easy and I've no problems installing a CU but I wouldn't ever tackle any work of this kind if I had the slightest doubt; I've seen a number of times electrical work has to be carried out by a "Competent" person and this is not referred to as a "Qualified" person; I'm competent and when I started this job I knew I could carry it out but I always intended to get an electrician in to do the necessary checks and to sort out the correct paperwork which I will do shortly.

I never intended to do this work with the intention of saving money; I've bought some decent kit since I started to complement the kit I already owned; Cable tracer; Socket tester; Fluke volt stick; head light and CK strippers not one of these are cheap; I bought an up to date fully compliant CU and correct Wiska glands etc; a mains isolator and upgraded the tails; in short I've not in any way skimped on either money or quality and I never will. Whatever it costs to get my work certified I'll gladly pay it.

I'm a new comer to this forum Lurch and can fully understand you becoming fed up of new comers posting the same questions time after time however on the whole I've been made welcome on the forum and treated with respect; not all forum members are time served electricians but many new comers have lots of other skills and those like me join to improve their skill and to ask the silly questions. No offence meant Lurch and I can fully understand what you mean; once I get everything sorted then I'll be history because I have lots of projects stacked up which don't include household wiring or CU's.

In earlier posts the question of fire proofing arose regarding my new mounting board which I took seriously; please see the picture below of a a very crude test I carried out regarding the fire proofing of the "Correct" mounting board; yes it burns readily and if its supposed to be fire proof then it smacks of the terrible "Grenfell Tower" problem where corners have been cut?

I'll complete what I started then get an electrician in. I now know a lot more due to joining this forum and would like to thank all those members who have offered information and suggestions; thank you.

I've found a number of faults on our electrics and I don't regret upgrading to a new CU with RCD's had I known up front I could have upgraded a bit further before buying the CU I would have spent the extra money;  what worries me now if I sneeze in the workshop is something going to trip?

Kind regards, Col.

 

[Tony S]

Radios and televisions may have higher voltages than a domestic supply but they aren’t covered by the regulations. Unfortunately for you a domestic installation must adhere to the regulations laid down in the IET wiring regulations BS7671.

I’ve forty plus years in the trade and my grand total of house rewires stands at a magnificent total of four. It’s not my field and if I want something altering I call on those who will do the job for me and issue the paper work.

 

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Tony S; once I get the house wiring certified then in future I too will adhere to the rules and check what I can and cannot do legally. I hope my story has deterred others?

Kind regards, Colin.

 

[steptoe]

@Retired

Wh do you think its fine to do the electrics, but you won't do gas,?

Is it really that different,? After all, putting a screw in a gas pipe is hardly likely to instantly kill you, where as putting a screw in an improperly installed electric cable could well have that result.

 

[steptoe]

EDIT :

The word competent, how would you equate this in a court of law,,? That would require proof of your competence, usually by a qualification and relevant experience, hard to justify your  competence if you have neither.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Hi,

Thanks guys for your replies which I appreciate.

When I state I like to do everything to the best of my ability I mean exactly that and go to great lengths not to make mistakes; safety is paramount to me not only to me personally but also others who may be affected by anything I do;

I would point out that some of what you say doesn't match up with your actions. I think Lurch actually summarises a problem that you and numerous other DIY electricians bring to the forum with the "I like to do everything properly even though I don't seem to have grasped the basics of this project yet" issue. Listing other projects that you have done that are not within the scope of BS7671 wiring regulations, however many, or how complex or clever they are, is just irrelevant text that proves nothing toward proving your competence to replace a consumer unit that meets the wiring and building regulations.

I wouldn't ever tackle any work of this kind if I had the slightest doubt; I've seen a number of times electrical work has to be carried out by a "Competent" person and this is not referred to as a "Qualified" person; I'm competent and when I started this job I knew I could carry it out but I always intended to get an electrician in to do the necessary checks and to sort out the correct paperwork which I will do shortly.

You may well consider yourself able to do the work but I am not sure you are actually competent in the eyes of BS7671 or HSE, competent persons should have a comprehensive grasp of all regulations and laws applicable to the work they are undertaking. It appears that you haven't gone to great lengths to check any guidance in BS7671 wiring regulations, (easily available from most bookshops, Amazon or libraries). Had you referred to one of the industry standard documents for electrical wiring in the UK you would have found your definition of competence is a bit different.

BS7671 previously used the definition "Competent person". Extract from earlier amendment to BS7617 gives the old definition:



BS7671 now uses the description "Skilled Person", where the current regulations definition is as follows:



The second note in this definition refers to the HSE document HSR25 which has had the following definition of competent for a long time:



In my opinion the industry recognised definitions of the terms Competent, or skilled, actually exceed the term "qualified". A person could have passed an examination to be qualified in a subject, but have no practical experience to be competent to work alone safely and avoid putting themselves or anyone else in danger.  Skill or competence would include Technical knowledge, Experience, Education, Training, Practical skills etc.. 

Doc H.

 

[phil d]

I would point out that some of what you say doesn't match up with your actions. I think Lurch actually summarises a problem that you and numerous other DIY electricians bring to the forum with the "I like to do everything properly even though I don't seem to have grasped the basics of this project yet" issue. Listing other projects that you have done that are not within the scope of BS7671 wiring regulations, however many, or how complex or clever they are, is just irrelevant text that proves nothing toward proving your competence to replace a consumer unit that meets the wiring and building regulations.

You may well consider yourself able to do the work but I am not sure you are actually competent in the eyes of BS7671 or HSE, competent persons should have a comprehensive grasp of all regulations and laws applicable to the work they are undertaking. It appears that you haven't gone to great lengths to check any guidance in BS7671 wiring regulations, (easily available from most bookshops, Amazon or libraries). Had you referred to one of the industry standard documents for electrical wiring in the UK you would have found your definition of competence is a bit different.

BS7671 previously used the definition "Competent person". Extract from earlier amendment to BS7617 gives the old definition:

View attachment 8151

BS7671 now uses the description "Skilled Person", where the current regulations definition is as follows:

View attachment 8152

The second note in this definition refers to the HSE document HSR25 which has had the following definition of competent for a long time:

View attachment 8153

In my opinion the industry recognised definitions of the terms Competent, or skilled, actually exceed the term "qualified". A person could have passed an examination to be qualified in a subject, but have no practical experience to be competent to work alone safely and avoid putting themselves or anyone else in danger.  Skill or competence would include Technical knowledge, Experience, Education, Training, Practical skills etc.. 

Doc H.

I totally agree with you, years ago you did your apprenticeship, then as you gained experience so you took more exams and gained more qualifications, sort of earn as you learn type of thing. Now people seem to go to college or a training centre and sit exam after exam without gaining any practical experience. You only have to look at how test meters have evolved to see that, my first MFT did a loop test and gave a measured value, you then checked this against the tables to see if the value of loop was suitable for the type of protection being used, fuse, mcb, etc.

My later one had all these values pre-loaded, at the start of the test you selected the type of protective device from a list, and as well as giving you a measured value it displayed a tick or a cross.

The new ones give a value,state pass or fail, and some even have a red or a green light to indicate it's correct, by that score my wife could carry out loop testing, RCD testing is the same, you don't really need any knowledge, just tell the machine the type and trip current and it does it all for you.

Recently I had a young lad, he'd just qualified, he rang me up asking if I knew anywhere he could do the inspect and test exam.Basically his boss had said he'd make him up to QS, with a corresponding rise in wage if he had the I&T qualification, he'd asked at the college where he'd trained and they'd refused (quite rightly imo) saying he lacked the practical experience.

 

[Lurch]

then as you gained experience so you took more exams and gained more qualifications

Aren't you quite vocal about the fact you don't need to take exams?

 

[phil d]

Aren't you quite vocal about the fact you don't need to take exams?

I'm not saying you don't need to take exams, what I'm saying is that you need to know what you are doing before taking certain exams. If you are newly qualified then in my opinion you don't have the experience to fully understand everything yet so how can you expect to do I&T properly? you cant!

If you don't fully understand how something works, then you can't expect to know how to fix it when it goes wrong. These days there seems to be a culture of collecting bits of paper that say you are qualified to do something without actually having any practical experience, that is what I disagree with.