Save Our Trade!

[D Skelton]

Sick of 5WWs? Sick of scam schemes? Sick of laughable training providers?

We as fully qualified electricians deserve better. The public deserve better. Get on here, start hitting the like button, share share share and spead the word guys!!!

We are boycotting the schemes, they can shove their £500 assessment fees where the sun don't shine! We are the industry, not them, so there's absolutely no need to let these parasitic organisations run around acting on our behalf!

Save our trade!!!
 

( link removed due to breach of forum rules - advertising of other sites ( including FB pages), who are not sponsors of the forum)
 
Mr Skelton,
I am not, and will not, be drawn into a debate about the pros and cons of the system on some remote page, hosted by ???????
 
My only concerns are with THIS site, and the way it is operated and run - i.e. to the best benefit of our membership at large.
 
The T&Cs of the forum were drawn up many years ago, but are regularly reviewed for validity, in a quickly changing cyber-world.
 
As a direct result of removal of the external link, the whole purpose of the thread becomes a bit vague. If you wish to host a poll or discussion, ON THIS FORUM, regarding your concerns, and suggested alternatives, then by all means proceed.
However, this thread is now locked.
 
Thank you, one and all
Admin 4

 

[steptoe]

Sick of 5WWs? Sick of scam schemes? Sick of laughable training providers?

We as fully qualified electricians deserve better. The public deserve better. Get on here, start hitting the like button, share share share and spead the word guys!!!

We are boycotting the schemes, they can shove their £500 assessment fees where the sun don't shine! We are the industry, not them, so there's absolutely no need to let these parasitic organisations run around acting on our behalf!

Save our trade!!!

mmmmmm,

and I have been saying/doing what since the 5ww appeared?

the only reason for the schemes being is for the 5ww and to give them some sort of legitimacy,

how did we all cope before it was seen as the done thing to join a scam?

anyone that has joined a scam has in a part way went to some part in making 5ww acceptable,

one thing that puzzles me Mr Skelton,

after watching the parlimentary thingie, why didnt you simply shoot down the fact that 5ww were accepted as being competent?

when we all know they are NOT, without further training and experience, yet the scams clearly accept them so long as their cheque clears.....

 

[D Skelton]

after watching the parlimentary thingie, why didnt you simply shoot down the fact that 5ww were accepted as being competent?

I have been shooting it down at every opportunity. Whilst giving evidence I said it in my opening statement to the committee, and in my two written submissions to the committee, and in letters to various MPs.

mmmmmm,

and I have been saying/doing what since the 5ww appeared?

So we agree then? Well get on the page and hit 'share'! lol

 

[Sharpend]

Ok so I've read the comments on the said page, then I ask myself this..... Are some of the comments not going to act as a guide for more untrained people to join? Some comments are effectively advertising how easy it is to become an electrician and we all know electricians are perceived to be one of the better paid trades?? And most people in this day and age will strive to earn a better wage, so will this just not draw more 5ww in?

I would suggest that comments are directed more to what part p/scams don't provide, such as part p doesn't guarantee a qualified electrician at your door, the scams are not fit for purpose as they are not supporting the qualified electrician. The scams hide behind smoke and mirrors, etc.

Just my observations.

 

[ProDave]

The only reason for the schemes is to give you a mechanism to self certify part P notifiable work.

Those that are not troubled with Part P have never had a need to join a scheme.

If you boycott the schemes you must also be boycotting part P, or paying a lot more to notify each job directly.

P.S how does "Liking" a face ache page help to spread the word? Yes sharing a link to it so others can see it, but I don't understand this liking business.

 

[D Skelton]

P.S how does "Liking" a face ache page help to spread the word? Yes sharing a link to it so others can see it, but I don't understand this liking business.

It proves relevance. The more likes the page gets the more likely it is to come up first if someone types in 'electrician' in the Facebook search bar.

 

[BES]

Don't think the schemes or part p should be stopped just a higher standard of qualification and experiance is required. Allowing a minimum of the 17th qual is no where near enough. I gave my daughter who was 15 at the time a copy of old exam paper and a quick run through of bs7671 and osg she managed to get 16 out of 20 correct. I personally didn't do an apprenticeship but when to college 11 yrs ago done 2360 part 1&2 work for free with a spark at weekends doing mainly light ind & comercial did 2391 when had some experiance got job fitting aircon and hygine equipment. Done that for 8 yrs then went on my own just doing domestic. I don't want to do ind or commercial so part p it is but I certianly don't want to do a nvq unless someone pays me to do it and feel my quals are adiquate for what I do.

Yoy can tell I'm a real spark by my terible speling

 

[Evans Electric]

Only 5 spelling mistakes there BES  ( I assume the last sentence is

)      7

                                                                                                                     10

Punctuation      8

                        10

Content of post    10

                            10

 

[D Skelton]

Mr Skelton - Not wishing to be rude or anything but if your so Anti-Schemes then you might thing of updating your own website with the following

1. Remove Elecsa Badges

2. Remove links to government websites who recommend searching for an electrician that is scheme registered (not your link is out of date but its in the governments memories for the old link)

3. Advertise the FB page on your website and let your customers know your views

I dislike the system as much as the next person but there are ways and means…...

I'm getting round to that, although there's no reason for me to remove it for another month as my renewal is in April. As it is, it can stay there as just another colourful logo at the bottom of the page, because let's face it, that's what a customer wants to see.

This campaign isn't exactly a customer facing one, considering less than 14% (official figures) have actually heard of Part P, half of which have never heard of the schemes. This campaign is directed at electricians alone, as it is only electricians that have the power to boycott the schemes. As for my website, that isn't me, it's a marketing tool, and for now, one more colourful logo at the bottom isn't doing any harm.

 

[ProDave]

But I ask again, if you all boycott the schemes, are you just going to break the law and not notify part pee stuff, or pay through the nose to notify each job with LABC?

Do you think anyone will notice if you do either of those?

 

[D Skelton]

But I ask again, if you all boycott the schemes, are you just going to break the law and not notify part pee stuff, or pay through the nose to notify each job with LABC?

Do you think anyone will notice if you do either of those?

Hi Dave, it is wholly the customers responsibility to notify anyway so you could do nothing and get away with it. No one enfoces it anyway. Another option would be to go to your local authority and show them your certificates. I am currently working out a pricing system to notify directly with my local authority and I think it is going to end up costing me about £10 per notification (not bad considering I notify maybe 10 jobs a year). They won't need to inspect it as I can prove that I am just as competent as any inspector they'd hire to inspect it! The third solution would be for you to prepare all the neccessary paperwork for the customer and hand it to them when you quote. 90% of the time thay ain't gonna care, your paperwork will go in the bin and you will do the work as normal.

To summarise, there are plenty of ways around notification.

 

[Manator]

I always thought that the point of having the debate was to establish if Part P worked and if not, why?  The evidence submitted was to clarify points raised by those who are directly involved, and listed any grievances and any suggestions to improve the system.

Things are changing however it will take time. I, like others have gone the lone campaign route and it does not work.

 

[ProDave]

I know. I don't notify anything :innocent

 

[D Skelton]

I always thought that the point of having the debate was to establish if Part P worked and if not, why?  The evidence submitted was to clarify points raised by those who are directly involved, and listed any grievances and any suggestions to improve the system.

Things are changing however it will take time. I, like others have gone the lone campaign route and it does not work.

It doesn't have to be a lone campaign, in fact it isn't, it isn't even my page!

There's none so blind as those who do not wish to see!

Get involved and it won't be a lone campaign!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hmmmm..

The phrase pi55ing in the wind comes to mind...

what real help is this actually going to do????

I have said most of this before over the years but I will say it again..

Before April 2005 and the introduction of Part P building regs to certain areas of the UK...

There were various contractors’ bodies already in existence...

Some 50+ years of existence some longer...  

With members Who were paying  subscriptions...

For some service or other that they consider beneficial to their business...

So were the “schemes”  all crap then as well???

And all of their members morons for paying their annual fee?

Or were they actually providing some beneficial service to a business or the industry as a whole?

Or is it just the part P aspect that you dislike...?

Part P & 5WW predominantly relates to domestic work..

So what is the bit about domestic work that you dislike?

A] Losing domestic jobs because people are undercutting your quote?

This will not stop because you boycott any schemes as DIY work is still allowed.

And the bloke down the pub can still fit the extra socket for £10 without any need to be a member of anything or do any 5WW course.

And some domestic work is not lost because of undercutting..

Just that the customer chooses NOT to do the work or puts it on hold for a few years because it is out of their budget and over recent years due to the economy, 99%+ of average domestic homes have got less disposable income to spend on home improvements!

Or B] Quality of work?

Every trade always has 'competent', 'keen to learn', 'reasonable with a bit of guidance' and 'absolute cowboy'  people working in it whatever trade it is..   Gas, Plumbing, Building, Doctors, Teachers, Police, Bankers, Shop keepers, Mechanics, Landscape gardeners, Hairdressers, Fishermen, Advertisers, Vets!.. etc.. etc..  etc..

So no matter what you do there will always be, the good, the bad and the ugly, installation work...

And the good, the bad, and the ugly training providers..

The ONLY work standards you have any direct control over is your own workmanship..

You will never stop shoddy work by poor quality workers by any amount or legislation..

FFS people have been operating illegal business practices for years; producing fake imitation goods designer clothes, fashion, technology gadgets, video, music, software, food product etc..  even bank notes and currency...

Yet there are stringent laws about copyright and who should or shouldn’t be legally able to produce such things...

What legally enforceable rules are you thinking of that will “Save the industry”..

And stop a few dodgy training providers or make a few dodgy “electricians” stop and change their ways?

No matter what you propose...

Someone will either ignore it or find a way around it!!

Remember...

NOBODY has to be a member of anything..

NOR has anybody being legally obliged to be a member of anything.. 

So if it’s so crap and contractor schemes are not a new phenomena...

why bother joining in the first place?

We all have a free choice about how to run our businesses..

And I only invest my hard earned money into things that bring some form of financial gain back to me or my business...

Just as with any advertising...

if there is no noticeable return to the benefit of the business then I don't spend the money... 

If others are doing crap work.. I cant stop that...

It has always existed in the past and it will no doubt continue in the future...

But the bottom line is:-

As long as my customers are happy with what I do and they keep paying me our mutually agreed costs for my time & materials and they pay up on time and they more often than not come back for further work in the future...

Then I am not going to waste to many hours worrying about other peoples "perceived problems" within the industry. 

No trade or job is perfect there is always something you could moan about if you wanted to...

Or you could invest a bit of time doing better more enjoyable activities with family, friends and loved ones!

Interesting to read that some people only have ONE local authority to notify to...

I guess some like me are either on the border of multiple authorities or travel a wider radius and may have numerous LABC's they could be notifying too....

As such, I really cant be arse'd with wasting my time trying to negotiate agreements with individual authories..

We keep hearing these £500 annual fee banded around..

To any reasonably successful business that is such a small amount when looked at over the annual turnover.. why do people keep moaning?? 

lets say you are working 40weeks per year self employeed..

£500 / 40 = £12.50 per week

£2.5 per day

Just stuff an extra £5 on two or three days work and its covered !!! 

EVERY OTHER SENSIBLE BUSINESS COVERS ITS OVERHEADS WITH ITS PRICING..

Is it just electricians who are too daft to price their jobs as any other profitable business does??

Guinness   

 

[D Skelton]

How is Fantasy Land special location? Can I come and live there too??

 

[Andy™]

We are boycotting the schemes, they can shove their £500 assessment fees where the sun don't shine!

Skelton's website:

We are an Elecsa approved electrical contractor based in Brighton and Hove and covering the South East of England.

erm... either your in, or your out...

But I ask again, if you all boycott the schemes, are you just going to break the law and not notify part pee stuff, or pay through the nose to notify each job with LABC?

thats another fault with part P. its the home owners responsibility. we can notify, effectly on their behalf, but its still upto them to make sure its done.

 

[Steve3948]

The thing is before there were 5 week courses anybody who fancied being an electrician and ultimately advertise as an electrician had to do a proper course which took time, money and commitment which put most off. Sparks that worked PAYE did cash jobs evenings and weekends for cash so were cheaper than firms and kept those that wanted cheap job happy.

Then along came the 5 week course and anybody getting made redundant with a package bought a van had it sign written, did the 5 weeks and Hey Presto new spark on the block.

IMHO its not Part P thats the problem, its the short courses, these should be outlawed.

 

[pewter]

I agree with Specs.

I think having the NIC logo on my van gets me extra work. Well worth the £400 a year I think.

I think part-p is good, it does help keep the riff raff out.

Before the P, anyone would have a go. Now at least some plasterers, kitchen fitters, home owners are seeking out proper sparks to do stuff they used to have a go at.

Has the entry requirements not changed now. I thought an NVQ was required.

Elecsa and nappit wanted 2382 and 2394/5 (2391) to join I thought anyway. Not just 2382.

I think the entry to self certification should be:

2382

2394

2395

2396

NVQ

Driving license

10m swimming badge

Decent bag of tools

Cordless tools

Torch

Brother p-touch printer

Lunch box

German van

Racking in van

iPhone

Clean clothing. (Not covered in silicone and paint)

Shirt

Tie for QS

Belly

Moaning misses

At least 10 politically incorrect (bad taste) jokes.

I have so much work I don't care they let my 4 year old join.

Anyone who picks the cheapest price from a numpty is not the kind of customer I want.

 

[D Skelton]

It has got nothing to do with price, or at least in my case it hasn't. 90% of my work is commercial/industrial anyway. For me it is about public awareness and public safety. The public need to be made aware that using an unqualified tradesman can be deadly. They also need to be protected from those who are underskilled and yet pass themselves off as 'qualified' when they are not.