Second fix how much mess?

[crazydiamond]

Can anyone tell me how much mess is reasonable to expect in a new extension from second fix electrics?

Our electrican has made multiple holes to find cables he forgot about and has damaged the plaster around all the plug sockets and switches. Is this normal?

I had assumed that just a coat of paint would be needed but a lot of places need reskimming.

Also how much of the repair work (if any)should I expect him to do? He has roughly patched the holes. Is this reasonable?

 

[Sidewinder]

“forgot” about, or were they “hidden” or “moved” by other trades?

 

[ProDave]

This is where trades need to work together and help each other.  At the very least I expect the joiner fitting the plasterboard to drill a hole and poke the wires through, though for the life of me I still wonder why the joiner is usually incapable of doing that at the correct height that I have informed him of.

I then expect to be called to cut the back boxes in BEFORE the plasterer or taper comes along and most definitely before the painter follows him.

If nobody drilled the plasterboard and poked the cables through, and the plasterer and painter came before the electrician was offered the chance to cut the back boxes in, then I would say it is most definitely not his fault.

 

[Andy™]

Our electrican has made multiple holes to find cables he forgot about and has damaged the plaster around all the plug sockets and switches. Is this normal?

well if certain other trades board over cables and requires holes to locate them  and mud slingers fill the box with plaster which needs removed with a hammer & chisel then yes there will be damage. happens often, especially damaged plaster around a box

Also how much of the repair work (if any)should I expect him to do? He has roughly patched the holes. Is this reasonable?

well since the other trades have not done their job correctly (i.e plasterer being too lazy to remove plaster whilst its wet, requiring more work to second fix) then it would not be unreasonable for you to receive additional cost for the extra work involved in the 2nd fix... personally, i dont patch anything. if i need to make a hole in something because someone hasnt done their job correctly then they will be coming back to make it good

 

[Evans Electric]

If its a crew who normally works together on these projects there should be none of that nonsense going on .  

If its a job where its every man for himself  then yes , there will be no forward planning between trades , plasterers will happily board over  1st fix cables  or fill  KO boxes with plaster etc .        

 

[Murdoch]

I recently visited one of my jobs a couple of days after the plasterer left .... and noticed he had plastered over a switch box completely - fortunately for me and the client the dampness of the switch box enable me to locate the switch and clear it out before it was painted 

plasterer = muppet

good thing I visited while it was still damp ish

 

[kerching]

I once left all Switch box cables about 12" long ( at request of client ). Each cable marked up as to,where it came from, went to, and its function ( clients request , he was odd BUT an F good payer so he could have whatever he wanted )

went to second fix and plasterer had cut all cables to 6" losing all the markings as they were in his way

his trowel mysteriously got a big hole blown in it, buckets became very religious, spot board caught fire, all rubber on hawk handle had some weird chemical reaction with some unknown chemical on site.  Very unlucky that plasterer, very unlucky indeed

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Can anyone tell me how much mess is reasonable to expect in a new extension from second fix electrics?

Our electrican has made multiple holes to find cables he forgot about and has damaged the plaster around all the plug sockets and switches. Is this normal?

I had assumed that just a coat of paint would be needed but a lot of places need reskimming.

Also how much of the repair work (if any)should I expect him to do? He has roughly patched the holes. Is this reasonable?

This type of question depends upon the competence of ALL parties involved..

e.g. ALL trades; Builders, Carpenters, Plasterers, Plumbers, Electricians.. etc.. etc...

AND the homeowner or client, (whoever is project managing the job)..

i.e.  What written agreements do you have stating who will do what?

if everything was verbal, then basically it is every man for himself doing what they think is best..

I've been self employed now for over 21 years, doing numerous first & second fixes on all sorts of extensions..

and have never had the problems you describe..

As I will always provide a written schedule of work stating what I will and wont be doing..

So it will clearly state whether I am covering costs & labour for making good any plaster chased out,

or if it is up to the client to organise patching up.

(on some smaller jobs I will patch-up or get some one to patch, to save my customers the hassle of contacting other trades).

But either way it will be written down in the schedule of work.

So everyone knows what to expect.

If you have no written agreement.. then it is pot-luck what you get..

In certain circumstances I will take detailed measurements and photos, of where my cables are..

Then tell the plasterers to just board over the lot..

Which gives them an easy surface to skim..

And I can go back later with my measurements and cut any holes where I need making sure the are all level / lined up as needed!

Guinness     

 

[crazydiamond]

Thanks all this is helpful. I should have said we have a main contractor who is responsible for employing all the subcontractors including the electrican and plasterer. The only element he is not responsible for is the decorating.

We have now been left with lots of holes everywhere which our main contractor is saying is the responsibility of our decorator to sort out. He tells me this is normal for second fix?

I think the plasterers may have been told by electrican to skim over all for some walls becuase we asked at the time where the cables were and he said he wanted them pulled through after to make sure they were in the right place. He then told us later he had fallen out with his colleagues and they would not tell him where the cables were. In one wall after he had made lots of holes he used a photo from my phone to locate them. In other cases things were done in the wrong order e.g switches that should have been decommisioned at first fix stage were only moved after the plastering had been done leaving a hole.

Do you think I should ask the main contractor to repair, pay my decorator to do this or ask the electrican to sort?  The problem is patching these holes also looks a bit naff. Would I be within my rights to pay for a plasterer to reskim these holes and take it off the main contractors final bill?

 

[Andy™]

And I can go back later with my measurements and cut any holes where I need making sure the are all level / lined up as needed!

Guinness     

until they move a wall or change floor level or something then all your markings are out.. had that before more than once

We have now been left with lots of holes everywhere which our main contractor is saying is the responsibility of our decorator to sort out. He tells me this is normal for second fix?

well if the main contractor has specified that all walls are to be plastered ready for decorating, then someone he's employed to do a job damages that meaning its not ready for decorating, then the main contractor is still responsible for making good

 

[Andy™]

Would I be within my rights to pay for a plasterer to reskim these holes and take it off the main contractors final bill?

you must give the main contractor a chace to fix the problem first, if they refuse then yes. make sure this is in writing, very important later on if they refuse

 

[revjames]

In an ideal world and from experience on larger well run contracts, 2nd fix comes after the place has been painted and decorated. the only mess is from bits of cable from the connections, the odd bit of plaster where a box has to be cleared out. Where a ceiling or wall has to be boarded, I usually measure the position of the lights, sockets etc and make sure the cables are in the right place. On 2nd fix just a matter of drilling holes, cutting out board for dry lining boxes and cables should be in place ready. However, as others have said, muppets like plasterers cutting off cables and filling in boxes not caring a bit about other trades coming after them. I have gone to a house where there is a fully fitted kitchen complete with tiles and theres no sockets or evidence of them anywhere. 

 

[ProDave]

until they move a wall or change floor level or something then all your markings are out.. had that before more than once

well if the main contractor has specified that all walls are to be plastered ready for decorating, then someone he's employed to do a job damages that meaning its not ready for decorating, then the main contractor is still responsible for making good

Yes the main contractor should have ensured the electrician went to site at the appropriate time, and the plasterer should not have been until the electrics were ready for him.

 

[Sharpend]

Does nobody fit wood noggins and metal boxes these days? Make them a couple of mill proud of board depth and most issues are solved? 

 

[phil d]

I remember years ago, for some unknown reason the firm I worked for took me off my usual stuff (industrial) and put me on a new housing estate, I hated it. One Monday I arrived on site and met one of our apprentices who I hadn't worked with before, the plasterers had been in over the weekend and done about 6 houses, our lads had wired them earlier and they'd been boarded and that weekend they'd gone in and given them the final skim.

Unfortunately they'd made a beautiful job in the kitchen of plastering over every box, and being a big kitchen there was loads of them, 1 wall had about 10 points on it.In typical 'angry me' mode, I went looking for the boxes, with a large hammer, when I'd found them the whole wall needed redoing, I then decided to look next door, it was the same, so again I went looking for my boxes, the young lad thought I'd lost the plot and went to find the site manager. By the time they came back I had just started on house number 4!

The site agent wasn't too pleased so I explained to him what they'd done and showed him the remaining houses, they were all the same. The plasterers were on price work so didn't really give a stuff about anyone else, anyway the site agent saw my point and made them redo all their work unpaid. I for my part made it clear that if I encountered similar problems in future I'd use the same method to find the box, whether it was one box or a wall full, out would come the hammer! They were the best plasterers anyone could ask for after that, it's amazing what a couple of days unpaid work can do to make people think before they act.

The only other time I had issues with a plasterer was in some offices, he didn't bury my boxes, but they had plenty of plaster in them and when I went back to second fix it had gone hard, what a pain that was.

Anyway when I wired the next office I stripped all the cables back and joined the ends with connector block, I decided not to put tape over the blocks as it would be better without. Before I  left site I pinned several notices on the walls, 'WARNING ALL CABLES ARE LIVE' and went home. When I went back a couple of weeks later the job was perfect, not a spot of plaster in any of the boxes.Thing was the plasterer turned up while I was there and said it was the hardest job he'd ever had to do, 'why anyone would make the cables live before the installation was complete was beyond him' he moaned. "well it results in a better job by the plasterers" I replied, I never told him the ends weren't connected in the board. lol

 

[binky]

Easi-fill works wonders. Great stuff, easy to use, fill slightly proud of wall and sand back to flush. 

 

[revjames]

went for lunch and the plasterer was fitting board to the ceiling. I warned him to make sure he brought my cables through the board. I came back after lunch and the ceiling was complete and skimmed. No sign of the cables. I asked him where they were and he said (Irish Accent) "Surely you have a method, of detectin the wires with a lil bleeper or somethin?" I went to the van and came back with a 4lb 'bleeper' and made a hole in the new ceiling big enough to put my head in, located my cables and pulled them out. He never did it again.

 

[Andy™]

Anyway when I wired the next office I stripped all the cables back and joined the ends with connector block, I decided not to put tape over the blocks as it would be better without. Before I  left site I pinned several notices on the walls, 'WARNING ALL CABLES ARE LIVE' and went home.

tried that before... didnt have the same results you did. you must have a smarter mud slinger