service cutout fuse

[dazooboo]

I've been lucky in that the couple of consumer units I've changed have had isolation switches. What is the process for getting the fuse pulled by DNO do I get them to connect the meter taills to the new CU? What does the cusomer do while they are waiting for the change over? How long does it take for them to come round? Cany I durry rig something in the mean time?

Cheers

 

[Manator]

Firstly you must contact the DNO, and arrange a temporary disconnection, I have a very good relationship with my local area DNO and was registered before Part P came into effect as an approved electrician, so I do have a written agreement with them to break seals and either re seal or place a works order to reseal on next visit.

Most DNO's are very helpfull, some are not and may make you wait, some Part P domestic installers just think its fine to cut the seal, and blame it on the seal fairy, sorry but it is still a criminal offence, and those that carry out this practice do their trade no favours. Explanation of the law and rules would normally placate most clients and install confidence that you are least doing your job to the letter of the law. Any emergency disconnection for H&S issues can also be done providing you get authorisation from the DNO.

I do get away with a lot, but its only because I have built up a reputation with my DNO over the last twenty years or so.

I also voted against a carte blanche ruling to allow all Part P domestic installers to remove the main fuse. Simply because some (not all) have no idea of the dangers.

 

[Dunx]

Don't agree with always contacting DNO. I have endless stories of contacting DNO's and just being ferried around in circles. Great if you have a personal contact but if not you are heading for a whole world of pain trying to get any sense out of call centre operators. I strongly believe that electricians who are registered should be able to cut seals and remove main fuse. I don't think its a valid argument to say 'some electricains don't know the risks' because that could apply to almost any area of sparking.

I had one example where I was putting a new CU in for a client and I noticed that one of the main tails out of the meter appered loose, during the other fitting it came away in my hand and probably had been incorrectly installed in the first place. I explained to the client that this had to be sorted by DNO... what followed with EDF was farcical with EDF saying it wasn't their responisibilty and the energy supplier saying it wasn't theirs. I eventually after 4 [yes 4] phone calls got hold of a supervisor and told him that I needed permission to make the installation safe and that the owner was elederly had a lot of frozen food. This was reluctantly given and it took 5 mins. The client later told me that 2 sets of people turned up for EDF!!

Trust me on this, rely on the meter fairy!

This forum does not condone this advise, it is illegal to interfere with any DNO equipment.

 

[Doc Hudson]

A lot of electricians will understand and agree with what you are saying Dunx, but the Forum would just make it clear that your suggested actions are not a recognised safe working practice and would in most cases contravene the rules and guidance of the respective DNO. As such the correct guidance would be to contact you local DNO. I do know that in some cases permission is given and the DNO then arranges a suitably agreed re-sealing visit.

Doc H.

 

[Dunx]

Fair comment but a lot of the DNO guys who come out are not sparks! I appreciate they have had specialist training but they have big gaps in their knowledge/experience base. For example I called one out [i do occasionally :-]] to do a meter upgrade and he was going to put a 100A DP upside down ie with cables coming from top. In reality probably not much to write home about but he wasn't aware about the appropriate IP rating for accessories etc. Another couldn't tell me what the switching load was on an off peak meter was when it was written on the meter.

I am also not sure why, done correctly, it is considered unsafe working practice......?

 

[steptoe]

cos you are not allowed to do it by law,

EAWR I suspect.

if something is illegal there is usually a reason,

70mph speed limit anyone,

just because Jenson Button is capable of driving at 200mph doesnt mean everyone that has passed a driving test is.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I am also not sure why, done correctly, it is considered unsafe working practice......?

It is all about legal obligations and limitations, not what you think you can do safely, Steptoes driving faster than 70mph is a good example. Are you a member of any approved contractor scheme Dunx, NIC/NAPIT/BSI/ELECSA? Their various tech help lines will probably confirm their understanding on this procedure and I think you will be going against their scheme guidance as well. You may also want to check if your insurance covers you in the event of a serious injury to yourself or others due to you removing the cut out fuse. The basic point is the main cut-out is not the property of the homeowner and as such you have no authorisation to touch it.

Doc H.

 

[Sidewinder]

As i have intimated loads of times you need to check ESQCR, which is statute law, as is EAWR89, if you refer to these then IIRC you will find that you are prohibited from working on the DNO network.

The cut out fuse is part of the DNO network, thus if you work on this without the written authority from the DNO then you are in breach of statutory legislation, i.e. breaking the law.

In the same way if you pop into McDonald's for a burger and see a fault, if you get your tools out and start fixing it you could be prosecuted for criminal damage.

The most you could do would be if you are so sad that you have your EDN pad would be to fill one of them out if the defect warranted this.

 

[SparkyMarky]

This is a topic that certainly makes my blood boil. The DNO's have an almost impenetrable phone system and yet they insist that you ask for authorisiation to undertake safe working. Yeah right! Real world, are you going to spend hours on the phone being shunted around by moppets, wait for ever for the DNO to turn up and pull the fuse, are you going to avoid that by working live, are you buggery. It's time they got their act together and licenced qualified electricians to cut and re-seal cut out fuses. And until they do that I'm just grateful that the cut out fairy has already called. Every time.

 

[Sidewinder]

SparkyMarky,

I will not condone on an open Internet forum braking the law.

If you wish to break the law that is your choice.

Please remember however, that the meter readers when taking the readings, which they are supposed to do every 12 months, will have indicated on their system that the seals are intact on both the cut out & the meter.

If you are the last man standing as you have done the right thing and provided certs etc. then it will be down to you to prove that you did not cause criminal damage in cutting the seal, and that you did not contravene ESQCR & EAWR89 by pulling the main fuse.

The criminal damage bit is enshrined in ESQCR, thus the burden of proof in law will be reversed as per H&S law you are guilty and must prove your innocence.

 

[Dunx]

I don't want this to get out of hand but are we not over complicating a really simple situation.....? Criminal Damage for heavens sake?! What is the risk assessment? CD is nothing to do with H&S its a straight and separate offence. But really do we think as responsible tradesmen/women that this is really a sensible way forward? I am with the NIC, bless them, but I also have to make a living and I would not do anything to endanger myself or anyone else. On the other hand I have to be practical and responsible and poncing around on the phone for hours to a call centre weeks ahead of a job that will take a few hours and have to rely on some guy turning up when they say they will. Doesn't sound like a good business plan!

Dunx

Could someone point me towards the relevant sections of appropriate legislation, I am now intrigued.

 

[Sidewinder]

Dunx,

If you are enrolled with the NIC you should be fully aware of the relevant legislation to comply with your enrolment and your statutory duty.

 

[SteveT]

Sidewinder, where does it say in ESQCR that the last person to work on an installation IS guilty of criminal damage if the seal is subsequently found to be broken following some work.

I think you are mistaken in your assumption.

The DNO would still have to prove - beyond all reasonable doubt, that you in fact were responsible. We are talking of a criminal offence!

There are very few offences which reverse the burden of proof, and rightly so. All HSE does is to shift a burden of proof to you to show you acted properly in accordance with the law to negate the charge. the same as driving without insurance - you can be charged - it is very difficult for the state to prove a negative - but you can easily rebut the charge if you have insurance.

 

[ProDave]

I, like most, rely on the "seal fairy" to allow me to pull the main fuse.

It may not be by the book, but I've not had a problem.

Try getting the DNO to come and pull the fuse, when the DNO is not their energy supplier, but somebody like Npower is. After you have run around the call centre, you give up banging your head against a brick wall and pray for the seal fairy, who comes next day right on time.

I've just done a rewire, which needed the DNO to come and upgrade the cut out. It took over 2 weeks and several phone calls to get them to attend. Imagine all that hassle for a 1 day CU change. I had to put up with the endless phone calls and delays because I had no choice, but a simple CU change I wouldn't bother.

This forum does not condone this advise, it is illegal to interfere with any DNO equipment.

 

[SparkyMarky]

Sidewinder,

I am an honest, upright, law abiding individual. All my electrical work, to the best of my knowledge, is fully compliant with 7671. I would never, ever, facilitate or condone cheating the DNO. However, the fact that it's against "the law" to pull fuses just means that the DNO's are not motivated to reach a sensible solution concerning qualified electricians and safe working. Indeed, if they cared one jot they would have dedicated phone lines and dedicated crews to pull fuses. Open forum or not, I can tell you that I am not prepared to mess around on their Bombay phone system, pay through the nose and wait until I'm old and grey for their jobsworths to turn up, I've a living to earn. If the DNO's don't like it they should get off their collective arses and sort it.

 

[Sidewinder]

SteveT,

That is NOT what I said.

You have provided a summary in the past of your background.

Every insurer I have had has informed me that I cannot insure against criminal action.

You intimate that this is not so.

Under ESQCR & EAWR89 there are statutory and other points that are relevant.

H&S law reverses the burden of proof as you are more than aware.

My point with the seal is this, the seal was intact when the meter reader came, it is now cut, you are by your own admittance the only and last person to work on the install, certs prove this as there is no other documentation for works being undertaken.

You would have to duck this.

Also, under EAWR89 you are working on a live installation when pulling the fuse, your competence to do this must be assessed, the only persons to do this are the DNO, will they back you up or not?

Your call.

Apart from all this as I have already said, I am NOT GOING to advocate the cutting of the seal, nor the removal of the fuse as this is not acceptable without permission from tne DNO whose property this is.

You go ahead and advise everyone you like to cut the seal and pull the fuse, I will continue to advise agaisnt it. That way when something goes wrong, which it will, and there is a big bang, my concience is clear. You make from this what you will.

Remember there are even jobs that the DNO guys will not do, in our area, one of these is remove a 951 clamp from the outer of an incomer.

They are not allowed, too many bangs!

To do this they isolate the line and then repair and re-joint, this is considerd safer.

You carry on your way, advocating your ideas based on your legal training & I will carry on mine based on my engineering experience and qualifications and the H&S training, experience & qualifications I have.

 

[Manator]

I would like to know which DNO as a call center in India ? The number I phone is for the operations department, if I require a fuse pull or a supply upgrade I book it with the person who I call, ok they may be the same people the connections guys ring but thats the contacts I have made over the years. The scheme providers and DNO companies had talks over the last two years about a plan for DI's to pull the main fuse without contacting the DNO, a trial was planned but then scrapped. The thought was good but the risk was considered too high.

 

[Sidewinder]

Perhaps the bar was too low for the DNO's?...

 

[Badger]

in my opnion approved contractors should be trained with ppe to be able to pull the fuse by the dno, in the correct porcedure to pull the fuse, any decent spark if they think the risk is to high would then inform dno of upgrade needed to head on the day they view the job, but imho if sparks where actually trained and took a creditation test to pull a main fuse safely then surely that would be a lot better and the dno would get alot of trust from decent sparks in the end,

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:34 ----------

i mean christ im sure alot of people know you would never pull the main fuse under load anyway, you always run the shower first

:tongue in cheek

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I don't want this to get out of hand but are we not over complicating a really simple situation.....? ..... But really do we think as responsible tradesmen/women that this is really a sensible way forward? I am with the NIC, bless them......

Could someone point me toward the relevant sections of appropriate legislation, I am now intrigued.

Hello Dunx..

I can only assume from your comments you are new to the trade?

You say you are with NICEIC?

Do you not get their quarterly publications "Connections" & "Switched On"?

As this topic has been discussed during the past year and review of allowing contractors to open cut-out fuses has been under debate..

Have a look at Issue 16 of Switched On Spring 2010

Article bottom of page 7 headed

"Access to service fuses"

Summary result "DENIED"!!!

Also are you not aware of:-

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

Guidance notes can be found here:-

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/tna/+/http://www.dti.gov.uk/electricity-regulations/gfesqcr.pdf/

In a nutshell Paragraph 24(2)

places a specific legal obligation upon DNO to ensure their cut-out fuses on customer premises are to be locked or sealed to prevent access by unathorised persons.

1/ You or I are NOT authorised unless you have some written permission from the DNO of course!

2/ NICEIC / ECS printed articles on this very topic during the past 12 months say you are NOT authorised..

and electrical contractors..

NO MATTER HOW COMPETENT THEY FEEL THEY ARE..

Have been DENIED access to service cut out fuses!

So..

Its not complicated

It is Simple

You cannot legally remove seals & or cut out fuses!

Now what various electricians do or do-not do during their everyday course of business is up to them & they will carry the burden if the brown waste substance hits the rotating ventilation device....

But I cannot see how any competent electrician would ever suggest on an open public forum that cutting seals & removing fuses is a safe or legal practice.

And I would guess Admin & the Mods would be taking some risks if they were to leave such advice posted.

:| :C