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Special location, i am from bedfordshire, i dont look that good in a kilt really.

and as for the earthing i dont understand, i was going to take it straight from the house it all depends on what you guys recommend.

 
There are a whole bunch of tables in the regs giving max cable capacities for different types of installation...

BUT..

for example even if 20+m is outside in free air..

If your cable run then has 5m buried under 100mm+ insulation as it travels through the loft void..

this would have a significant de-rating on the max current (& thus power) capacities of the cable....

Hopefully this helps explain why it is a bit tricky to give definitive black & white answers...

There is also the bit of verifying the max permissible volt drop is not exceeded.

Again from the mv/A/m tables in the regs

 
Hi There,

With the greatest of respect, if you do not know the answers to questions one and two that badger posed,

1) do you know how to work out the correct cable size - rcbo- mcb protection - length of run required on the cable so that the circuit is safe?

2) do you know how to check what earthiung arrangement you have at the origin of the supply and i dont mean the consumer unit or water/gas bonding earths!

you might as well throw the meter you have in the bin, as you will assuredly not know how to operate it or to interpret the readings...

If as you say you understand three phase installs, i cannot see the problem, single phase is just the same, only there is only one third of it to worry about!!!!!

If you are determined to have a go though, post some photos of what you already have and everyone will have a go at helping you

john...

 
Special location, many thanks, i think i will call in an electrician as you say there are too many factors as i do want it installed and certificated at the end of the day and want it correct, many thanks to everyone for there input, i will let you all know how i get on.

Thanks again guys

 
Special location, i am from bedfordshire, i dont look that good in a kilt really.and as for the earthing i dont understand, i was going to take it straight from the house it all depends on what you guys recommend.
Right..

legally this work should be either...

a) notified to your LABC & get them to test & certify it.. (probably at a cost

 
Say I asked you a question;

Go and get your meter and come back in 10 minutes with two figures

1, Ze

2, Zs for say, your downstairs sockets.

Explain the difference between the two, and tell us if the figure you get for Zs complies or not with the regs, as regards the OCPD for this circuit.

If you cannot do this, you need proper advice from someone "on the spot as it were"

john....

 
Special location, many thanks, i think i will call in an electrician as you say there are too many factors as i do want it installed and certificated at the end of the day and want it correct, many thanks to everyone for there input, i will let you all know how i get on.Thanks again guys
Have a look on our find an electrician page....

Directory of UK Qualified Electricians & Electrical Contractors - Find your local electrician.

I think M107 is somewhere down your end of the world..

but there will be others I am sure?

 
Say I asked you a question;Go and get your meter and come back in 10 minutes with two figures

1, Ze

2, Zs for say, your downstairs sockets.

Explain the difference between the two, and tell us if the figure you get for Zs complies or not with the regs, as regards the OCPD for this circuit.

If you cannot do this, you need proper advice from someone "on the spot as it were"

john....
not a bad test there....

 
Say I asked you a question;Go and get your meter and come back in 10 minutes with two figures

1, Ze 0.03 ohms

2, Zs for say, your downstairs sockets. 0.54 ohms

Explain the difference between the two, and tell us if the figure you get for Zs complies or not with the regs, as regards the OCPD for this circuit. ZE is the resistance of the earth path via the incoming cable from the transformer not including any earth bonding to the gas service pipes and the water service pipes or the internal wiring for any circuits ie lights and sockets etc where and the ZS is the earth resistance reading using all earth paths including the gas and water services but also takes into consideration the resistance of the circuits earth path aswell ie the resistance of the actual cable used from the consumer unit to the circuit point. this complies as the ZE resistance should be the following on the different types of supply. TNCS/PME not above 0.35 ohms TNS not above 0.8 ohms TT not above 200ohms. deifference between tncs and pme is tncs is only earth staked at the centre point of the transformer where as pme is earth staked at any and every joint where the main cable joins the properties cable in the street, to be true pme it should also be staked at every property locally within the properties grounds and the zs must be no more than 1.15 ohms this is because being a 32 amp trip it is not guaranteed to trip if the cicruit zs earth reading is higher than this, under fault conditions and because of the downstairs ring final circuit :p being 0.54 ohms this is well within the required reading. now onto rcds? :slap :^O .

If you cannot do this, you need proper advice from someone "on the spot as it were"

john....
bowdownmaster.gif


oh sorry you lot i thought i was being given a test :^O

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capital Z

small e or s

BTW, you cant have an external earth path with MEBs,

sorry if this is sounding too pedantic, but if we are trying to ascertain if the OP has a grasp on what he is testing then we need to get it right.

Zs is the path of lowest impedance from star to star point looping through our circuit/point of test.

 
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shall we start at the first error?or do them all at once?

ZS - ???????

Zs I do understand, ;)

there are a few other lot less obvious ones too,
Literally laughed out loud at this, and looking but Badger's post #34, I think maybe it's too subtle?

 
Badge,

Not quite mate Ze is the earth fault loop impedance EXTERNAL to your installation, that is in the DNO side, or in your "earth rod & the DNO side", depending whether TN ot TT system.

BTW I am excusing the subscript etc. which are a pain to get right on the forum.

However, capitalisation is a bit more relevant and easier to do, sorry mate!

 
sorry if this is sounding too pedantic, but if we are trying to ascertain if the OP has a grasp on what he is testing then we need to get it right.
This could also be written as: "If we're trying to make the OP look a fool, we should be careful not to make ourselves look like one."

 
Hi All,

Newbie time again!!

Ze is earth loop impedance entirely "external" to our installation. So, the loop impedance from the supply transformer, along the phase conductor and then back to star point by which ever means the nice DNO people might have provided, down the cable sheath [TNS] back along the neutral [TNCS] or, alternatively through the ground itself [TT], via the happy medium of a spike we have banged in ourselves.

So, Ze is completely external to our installation. Therefore, it follows that to measure Ze we have to do several things;

1, Isolate [in the usual sense of the term] our installation, as we are going to have to disconnect the earthing conductor [disconnected earthing conductor + "live" installation = lunacy!!!!]

2, Isolate our installation from a EARTHING point of view. In other words, disconnect the MET from the earthing terminal, [or our rod] by removing the earthing conductor.

The idea of this, is to remove any connections that may or may not exist within our installation itself [via bonding conductors] to any extraneous parts that would [due to the influence of "parallel paths" [say water or gas pipes [they would act as giant earth rods] give us an artificially low reading. This is obviously essential to obtain a true EXTERNAL loop impedance figure.

3, Measure the external loop impedance.

So, now we know a true figure for Ze...

But what about Zs??

Well, Zs is simply the sum of Ze + R1 + R2 for the particular circuit concerned.

So how you going to obtain a figure for Zs then, which is after all, what we are actually interested in ???

You could calculate R1 + R2 if you so desired, or you could measure it with your ohmmeter, which would obviously be a better bet, as it would be a lot easier than trying to figure out the exact circuit cable length [for calculation purposes], and furthermore, it would include the resistance of joints etc and simply add it to the figure you obtained previously for Ze..Yeh, Zs!!

Alternatively, you could however, instead of all this messing about isolating people's installations, and disconnecting earthing conductors, measuring R1 +R2 blah blah, simply measure Zs directly with your loop impedance tester...

Certainly would be easier!!! and would probably be a more sensible, "real world" test.

Only trouble is, i have a problem with this approach, a very big problem.... It includes the influence of parallel paths etc.

Now, why would i care about that then??? So long as Zs is low enough, happy days!!

Errr, not really. Say i go along to someone's house/factory, measure Zs at their CU/DB, work out R1 + R2 for the new circuit i am installing, add it to Zs/Zdb [whatever you like to call it] determine that the sum of the two combined gives a total Zs at the extremity of the circuit low enough to achieve the required disconnection times for the OCPD i have installed to protect the circuit, install it all, check it with the meter, and all is well.

Errrm, yes, it might be....for now....But what if in future, some of the parallel paths are removed???? In a house, metallic water or gas pipes might be removed, in a factory they might demolish half of it, complete with all the steel portal frames that were acting as earth rods.

Now, i might very well find that Zs has risen to such an extent, that my OCPD's no longer achieve required disconnection times....... and i end up in a coroners court...

Nope, for me, Ze, is loop impedance COMPLETELY EXTERNAL to the installation, and Zs, is the sum of Ze, plus R1 + R2, [calculated or measured] for the circuit [or circuits] involved.

If it involves a lot of hassle coming up with a TRUE figure for Ze and R1 + R2, and hence Zs, oh well, i would rather this than try to explain to the judge that; "How was i supposed to know that it was reasonably forseeable that they might have a new plastic water pipe installed instead, or knock half the factory down!!!!

Yes, i KNOW that a lot of this might be "idealistic" but it is right, isn't it????......

john....

 
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