single switch to double

[Andy™]

And where will you be getting those from?

not you, clearly. basic jobs like this dont really require much instructions. and if the wiring is all in the loft then its almost guaranteed to be all surface so no worries of cables zones etc

 

[Murdoch]

not you, clearly. basic jobs like this dont really require much instructions. and if the wiring is all in the loft then its almost guaranteed to be all surface so no worries of cables zones etc

So tell me WHY every body has ignored post 12 - does that mean its OK for DIYers to do the same.......

For me and my profession this is very relevant.

 

[ProDave]

So tell me WHY every body has ignored post 12 - does that mean its OK for DIYers to do the same.......

For me and my profession this is very relevant.

He's fitting a new loft light to an existing lighting circuit, almost certainly using class 2 light switches and light fitting.

EVEN IF the water and gas had no bonding whatsoever, and the main earth bond was 6mm, Fitting this loft light would NOT make the house more dangerous.  He is NOT adding a new circuit, and NOT making alterations in the consumer unit.

Get things into perspective.

If he was asking how to install a new shower circuit, I am sure the answers would be different.

Yes of vourse we as professionals would look at the bonding and make recommendations if it needs upgrading.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

So tell me WHY every body has ignored post 12 - does that mean its OK for DIYers to do the same.......

For me and my profession this is very relevant.

Probably because it has no relevance to the question in hand....

Those of us who are professional trades persons are conversant with all current regulations including items such as 114.1

It is quite clear that OP will not be contravening any statutory regulations by undertaking the work they are asking about......

and It is extremely unlikely they will be installing any items with exposed metal parts....

and it is very doubtful that any limits of Zs, volt-drop, cable capacity, or max demand of the installation will be exceeded....

or even anywhere slightly near raising any worries....

So what exactly are your concerns.....

worried you may have lost another £35 job?

:shakehead    

 

[Murdoch]

Probably because it has no relevance to the question in hand....

Those of us who are professional trades persons are conversant with all current regulations including items such as 114.1

It is quite clear that OP will not be contravening any statutory regulations by undertaking the work they are asking about......

and It is extremely unlikely they will be installing any items with exposed metal parts....

and it is very doubtful that any limits of Zs, volt-drop, cable capacity, or max demand of the installation will be exceeded....

or even anywhere slightly near raising any worries....

So what exactly are your concerns.....

worried you may have lost another £35 job?

:shakehead    

But it has - so you are saying that DIY work is completely exempt from the need to meet any regs then!

Just pointing out the hypocrisy of some of you.....

As for the £35 job - don't be stupid.

 

[Andy™]

7671 is not law...

 

[Sidewinder]

There are no laws nor regulations covering DIY work, anyone can do DIY electrical work on their own home quite legally the same as they can do DIY gas work on their own home, quite legally.

The only issues are with regard to Building Regulations, if the work does not require Building Regulations notification then unfortunately they are free to do as they wish.  Legally.

Like it or not.

I don't, but, I can't change the law on my own.

 

[Davethsparky]

EVEN IF the water and gas had no bonding whatsoever, and the main earth bond was 6mm, Fitting this loft light would NOT make the house more dangerous.  He is NOT adding a new circuit, and NOT making alterations in the consumer unit.

Get things into perspective.

It only takes one over or under tightened connection to start a fire, especially in a light fitting screwed to the nice dry timbers of a roof truss. 

How this for perspective: the current flowing through a 100W lamp is more than enough to kill a human being and the power which could dissipate in the human body before a 6A MCB operates will be enough to boil every drop of water in that body and burn the skin, flesh, muscles etc to a crisp. 

The company where I served my apprenticeship had an apprentice die when he was working in a loft. The main switch had been isolated for the house but an illegal connection had been made to the service cable and something was still live in the loft, he made contact with something live whilst also in contact with some copper pipes. 

 

[learningcurve]

I just asked for advice or help, I never expected to be put down in the manner that Murdoch feels appropriate

oh well thank you to all of the rest of you who were decent and fair and understanding, oh and 2 fingers to you Murdoch 

 

[ProDave]

It only takes one over or under tightened connection to start a fire, especially in a light fitting screwed to the nice dry timbers of a roof truss. 

How this for perspective: the current flowing through a 100W lamp is more than enough to kill a human being and the power which could dissipate in the human body before a 6A MCB operates will be enough to boil every drop of water in that body and burn the skin, flesh, muscles etc to a crisp. 

The company where I served my apprenticeship had an apprentice die when he was working in a loft. The main switch had been isolated for the house but an illegal connection had been made to the service cable and something was still live in the loft, he made contact with something live whilst also in contact with some copper pipes. 

Which is preciciely why it is infinitely better to help and advise someone how to connect the light properly.

If you just tell them to bugger of, they should not be doing it, then most of them will do it anyay, without guidance, and they probably will make a mistake and do something dangerous.

 

[Doc Hudson]

For those who dislike answering any form of DIY question as it is far to dangerous to contemplate all of the possible consequences that in reality are very unlikely to happen, I have some bedtime reading for you. Here you will find lots of other things to make illegal, http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/overall/hssh1415.pdf  In fact looking at all of the work place injuries it could be argued that any form of work should be banned.

For the rest of us and LearningCurve, DIY electrical work is still perfectly legal in the UK. but please still remember electricity can kill a healthy adult in less than half a second and an incorrectly terminated overheating electrical connection, or the wrong size of cable carrying too much load could start a fire while you and your family are sleeping. So if in doubt don't. With those points in mind to get your extra light working you need a permanent live connection (from the middle terminal of you existing light fitting) to one side of your new switch (probably called 'C' or 'L1').  the other side of your switch, (the switched live) then goes to one side of your new light fitting. The other side of your new light fitting needs a neutral back to the neutral of your existing light fittings (the blacks).

Doc H.

 

[Davethsparky]

Which is preciciely why it is infinitely better to help and advise someone how to connect the light properly.

If you just tell them to bugger of, they should not be doing it, then most of them will do it anyay, without guidance, and they probably will make a mistake and do something dangerous.

Which is all well and good as long as the advice given does ensure that the work gets done properly, so far there has been no mention of safe isolation for a start, just a 'turn if off' warning, no mention of how to ensure that it has been turned off. 

 

[Evans Electric]

Well the guy may stab himself with the screwdriver , fall off the steps , cut the end of his finger off with the sidecutters etc.

Its like someone said about  having a Health & Safety man attached to every Army platoon ......  " Put that bayonet away you 'orrible little man ....you'll 'ave someone's eye out ."

" And hand all those weapons in ...someone could get killed if you fired that a them " 

 

[Doc Hudson]

Which is all well and good as long as the advice given does ensure that the work gets done properly, so far there has been no mention of safe isolation for a start, just a 'turn if off' warning, no mention of how to ensure that it has been turned off. 

Statistics would suggest that persons doing DIY electrical work are not dying at a rate of serious concern that would warrant making BS7671 statutory, or making DIY work illegal. In fact deaths due to motor vehicle accidents would suggest we should ban pedestrians, cyclist, cars, lorries and a few other road uses before worrying about putting in a loft light. Could all members please try to keep things in perspective. Thank You

Doc H.     

 

[Davethsparky]

Statistics would suggest that persons doing DIY electrical work are not dying at a rate of serious concern that would warrant making BS7671 statutory, or making DIY work illegal. In fact deaths due to motor vehicle accidents would suggest we should ban pedestrians, cyclist, cars, lorries and a few other road uses before worrying about putting in a loft light. Could all members please try to keep things in perspective. Thank You

Doc H.     

I did not suggest that DIY should be made illegal, I pointed out that the advice given needs to be such that the diyer can carry out the job correctly and safely.

What statistical rate of dying would you consider to be a concern? i am quite frankly appalled that you think the value of human life can be reduced to a consideration of statistics! 

In my opinion one death is too many. To turn it around and say it is ok because something else killed more people is unacceptable. 

 

[Doc Hudson]

i am quite frankly appalled that you think the value of human life can be reduced to a consideration of statistics! 

In my opinion one death is too many. To turn it around and say it is ok because something else killed more people is unacceptable. 

So what about motor cars and bicycles then, or skiing, or mountain climbing, or flying, is one death too many here as well or just electrical work? Electrical work has its dangers but so does almost every activity mankind undertakes. I think you will find the fishing industry and farming industry by far outstrip the electrical industry (professional or DIY) for its fatalities. Perhaps we should ban Apache form doing any Vet work as that was described as quite hazardous on country file?   There are a lot of 'electricians' on numerous forums who need to step back a few paces and look at the bigger picture. Any competent person worth their salt can figure out how much advice to give safely and when to back away. I would have to say that Steptoe is one such example of a person who has evaluated this thread correctly.

Doc H.

 

[Davethsparky]

So what about motor cars and bicycles then, or skiing, or mountain climbing, or flying, is one death too many here as well or just electrical work? Electrical work has its dangers but so does almost every activity mankind undertakes. I think you will find the fishing industry and farming industry by far outstrip the electrical industry (professional or DIY) for its fatalities. Perhaps we should ban Apache form doing any Vet work as that was described as quite hazardous on country file?   There are a lot of 'electricians' on numerous forums who need to step back a few paces and look at the bigger picture. Any competent person worth their salt can figure out how much advice to give safely and when to back away. I would have to say that Steptoe is one such example of a person who has evaluated this thread correctly.

Doc H.

Each thing needs to be considered in its own right and not balanced against another for the sake of justifying it. 

Consider this case, the choice is do it yourself or pay probably £100 to have it done properly, is the cost worth the potential risk? 

yes there are many other things than electricity which could kill you, but that is of little concern to the person who is electrocuted or their family. 

if my father died doing DIY then I sure as hell would not take any consolation from the fact the statistics say it was less likely than if he was a fisherman. 

 

[Apache]

I strongly suspect that a fully qualified electrician is far more likely to get a shock than a DIYer. You become complacent. You isolate individual circuits whereas I believe the majority of DIYers turn off all the power.

Of course statistical risk comes into the risk:benefit of doing anything. It does for me anyway. With safe working practices and a bit of homework that risk can be reduced to almost zero. If someone comes on and asks how to fully wire a steel foundry then I am quite happy you telling them to call an electrician. This is barely beyond changing a plug.

I did something similar in my own loft (and it made it SO MUCH SAFER) as I could see properly! I spurred of the ring with a 3A FCU.......

Tomorrow I am taking some electric clippers apart to service them and resolder a new power cable. If my order comes on Wednesday I have a couple of PIR security lights to change.

I have an electrical qualification (beyond a physics A level) in that I qualified online as a PAT tester. I have a certificate and everything!

 

[Rob_the_rich]

you say the loft is already boarded. Is the utility room ceiling rose the nearest rose to the loft hatch?

Why have a double switch in the utility room? is the loft hatch in the utility room? other house users might leave the light switched on if they can't see it.

usually the switch for the loft light is somewhere near the hatch inside the loft, so that you switch it on/off when accessing the loft. you would run the cable from the rose to the switch and then run another cable to the light. Ideally the cable from the rose would run in the cavity between joists, so think about whether the utility room rose is the best choice. The cavity might be stuffed full of insulation, and tricky to get the cable through. 

When you put the ceiling rose back together, don't forget to wrap the two brown wires holding the weight of the lampshade around the two plastic posts before screwing the cover back on.

Hope this all makes sense, it is late.

 

[Manator]

@Davethsparky What you say is a mixture of sense and nonsense.

Yes safety must be a priority, and you mention safe isolation above in your post, safe isolation is a procedure to safeguard an electrical tester who may become complacent or forgetful. Its a method rather like mirror, signal manoeuvre when driving a car, and used to install a set method for safe testing.

For everyday use, simply turning off a circuit is sufficient. You will have seen the labels "Isolate before removing cover" DIY electrical works goes on everyday, is it not better that we help if we can, to make it safer? Or do we just ignore them and leave it all up to fate. The works described is a simple job, if it was anything else Steptoe above anyone on this forum would be telling the OP to get an electrician in to do the job.

I know an old retired gentleman who rewired his own house, he was a joiner by trade and when younger had seen the electricians working in conduit. Yes, you guessed it, he rewired his whole house in steel conduit and single cables, all chased into the walls, and was a better job than I have seen most electricians do. Not because he was skilled, but because he took pride in his own work.

Electricity does kill, however the data would suggest that the risk to a DIY'er is no greater. In this case the works would be carried out on a dead circuit and once energised would pose no immediate threat.