So 8th June.........

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The depression happened when Osbourne destabilised the economy and the mess was down to our lovelly banking sector. Why is it you right wing voters can't get that basic point, the ultimate capitalists failed and had to be bailed out by us all

Radishes, raw materials are a fraction of the cost of a finished product, manfacturing adds value to raw materials by creating a finished product that can be sold for far more than the material costs, and if that overall product is now relatively cheaper, which mostly comes from an effectively devalued labour cost, then you sell far  more product. Why else do you think the economy has been doing so well since the £ devalued? I spent 20 years in manufacturing, so I do know what I'm on about. Why also do you think the Chinese have artificially kept their currency undervalued?

You are correct in 1 thing, it was firk all to do with the government.

 
doesn't this just sum up the difference?

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Exactly.. The banks... It was the tories and their banking buddies that ruined the economy NO-ONE ELSE.

Real financial geniuses mind, had to be bailed out by ordinary "dull uneducated" types..

The banks should have been left to go bust, not a single penny should have been spent on them. Look at iceland, they threw the Tomatoes in jail and let the banks go bust. Seen any shortage of fish fingers in the shops have we?? Bailing out banks was an idiotis thing to do... and yes, i do know who did it, but i also know who was responsible, that halfwit thatcher for deregulating banks way back in 1986, That was when the rot set in...

john..

 
The depression happened when Osbourne destabilised the economy and the mess was down to our lovelly banking sector. Why is it you right wing voters can't get that basic point, the ultimate capitalists failed and had to be bailed out by us all
The previous labour government had already destabilised the economy long before Osbourne

Prudence Brown's "no more boom and bust" relied on the ultimate capitalists unsustainable growth to deliver and fund labour government policies

Radishes, raw materials are a fraction of the cost of a finished product, manfacturing adds value to raw materials by creating a finished product that can be sold for far more than the material costs, and if that overall product is now relatively cheaper, which mostly comes from an effectively devalued labour cost, then you sell far  more product.
So all products have a raw material value that is a very sweeping statement, again a product with little labour input does not benefit that much

I spent 20 years in manufacturing, so I do know what I'm on about.
So that makes you an expert on these matters, I've spent over 30 years working part time with a company that imports and exports goods across 3 continents doesn't make me an expert but you do see how currency volatility can affect costs

Why also do you think the Chinese have artificially kept their currency undervalued?
Even the Chinese are struggling now their boom has gone bust which is clearly seen in the price of commodities and raw materials due to over production

 
Exactly.. The banks... It was the tories and their banking buddies that ruined the economy NO-ONE ELSE.
So it was a Tory scheme to undermined the labour government that caused the 2008 crash silly me never realised that before

Obviously had nothing to do with the labour overspending and the massive mortgages it was signing up to

Real financial geniuses mind, had to be bailed out by ordinary "dull uneducated" types..
The labour government, I believe it was Alistair Darling that sorted the bail out

Is that how you see your heros

Look at iceland, they threw the Tomatoes in jail and let the banks go bust.
Because to bail their banks out would have seen Iceland go bust. Their banks offered returns that were ultimately undeliverable and a lot of investors lost substantial amounts of money including some UK councils

Seen any shortage of fish fingers in the shops have we??
Can you catch Alaskan ******* in Icelandic waters? as that is the fish that most fish fingers are made of these days

Bailing out banks was an idiotis thing to do... and yes, i do know who did it, but i also know who was responsible, that halfwit thatcher Prudence Brown for deregulating banks way back in 1986 1998,
Corrected that for you

That was when the rot set in...
The rot set in in 1997

 
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The previous labour government had already destabilised the economy long before Osbourne

Prudence Brown's "no more boom and bust" relied on the ultimate capitalists unsustainable growth to deliver and fund labour government policies

So all products have a raw material value that is a very sweeping statement, again a product with little labour input does not benefit that much

So that makes you an expert on these matters, I've spent over 30 years working part time with a company that imports and exports goods across 3 continents doesn't make me an expert but you do see how currency volatility can affect costs

Even the Chinese are struggling now their boom has gone bust which is clearly seen in the price of commodities and raw materials due to over production


New Labour spent money based on tax revenues, tax revenues based on the brave new world of banking and services, which we now all know was built on sand. Policies inherited from the previous administration and foolishly contimued by the Labout government. Now whilst spending a bit more money what appeared to be a sustainable way, the economy was doing well. Public services after decades of cuts improved, people had stability and therfore could plan ahead and spent money. Not that I ever agreed with shopping as the ultimate form of driving an economy - I certainly didn't. If I recall correctly the years under Labour were relatively good for most people. I would have to say I was incredibly disappointed that Labour did little to support industry and manufacturing, a great mistake in my opinion as this left us so reliant on the banking and services sector.

Everything starts as a raw material somewhere, whether that be iron ore dug out of a hole in the ground, or a crop in the field. The only exception to this is knowledge based products such as software, and people who just play with money all day long. As a country we seem to have decided to ignore all the relatively well paid factory work that went with that, and kept 7 million people in employment. Down now to 2.6 million.

Am I an expert, maybe not, but during my 20 year full time career in engineering I have worked for companies as big as British Aerospsace and as small as Vortok international, who you will have never heard of. During that time I have built weapons, dental equipment, designed and built production lines, designed built and costed new products, and outsourced work to China ( my last job in engineering and the point at which I decided to retrain as an electrician - you can't ship houses to China). Most of my work has been manufactruing based with aview to reducing costs, whether that be labour or materials. Amoungst other qualifications I have a HNC in Engineering, an MSc in Manufacturing Management and Technology as well as being a certifed ISO 9000 lead auditor. So overall I think I have quite a good handle on product designs and costs, and I do appreciate how currency volatility is a complete PITA at times. But then this has a lot to do witht he simple fact that most manufacturing imports assemblies and widgets to construct products from, all the small companies that used to make these items in the UK have gone, many lost to assest stripping rather than Chinese competition. So what we are really doing is trying to add value to items someone has already added value to, by manufacturing from raw materials. We have lost the capacity to do this ourselves, so will not see the full benefits that manufacturing from raw materials adds.

We have also failed to invest in manufacturing facilities, just look how Germany competes against cheap products. But that is a topic for a far more in-depth discussion.

As for China, I would hardly call 6.9% growth struggling or bust. Name 1 government that wouldn't kill for growth figures like that!

Either way, over the last 30-40 years all I have seen is greater and greater inequality in the wealth distribution of UK citizens, even TM is talking about that. Just look at the rise of foodbanks FFS. My opinion is that further slashing of public spending will lead to further destabilisation of the UK economy as the stable employment that many households depend on is futher undermined. Also attacking things like public health leaves a workforce in worse shape, this will also affect the UK economy. Even the Romans appreciated public health was important, hence all the baths and aquaducts they built. It also means that working people will be spending more time looking after the elderly and ill, instead of earning money, also not good for the economy. Now I would agree that public spending should be financed correctly, and to achieve that, Tax needs to be raised, much of which could be achieved by closing corporation tax loopholes. See link below. And even if that means we end up with 50% tax rates like Sweden, so be it, at least will will have decent sevices and it will be cheaper than trying to buy these services as individuals from private companies. A point I have costed and proved in several previous arguments on this forum.

https://realbusiness.co.uk/law/2013/12/13/six-companies-that-avoid-paying-their-taxes/

 
So it was a Tory scheme to undermined the labour government that caused the 2008 crash silly me never realised that before

Obviously had nothing to do with the labour overspending and the massive mortgages it was signing up to
Let me think, who was it developed NINJA mortagaes and sold these as triple A securities??

Do you really want to contnue arguing deregulation was anything other than under Thatchers' watch? Probably seemed a good idea at the time, it certainly seems to have had some merit given the restrictive practices that existed prior to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_(financial_markets)

 
Let me think, who was it developed NINJA mortagaes and sold these as triple A securities??

Do you really want to contnue arguing deregulation was anything other than under Thatchers' watch? Probably seemed a good idea at the time, it certainly seems to have had some merit given the restrictive practices that existed prior to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang_(financial_markets)


That's like blaming Vint Cerf for suicides caused by bullying on Facebook, ridiculous

 
No it is not..... Say a minister of transport decided that from now on there would be no driving tests, and no speed limits, and to do away with the offences of dangerous, reckless etc.  Would it be considered ridiculous to blame them for the resultant risk in road accidents??

john..

 
The trouble with politics is that there is no accountability.

Politicians must be held legally liable for their acts and or omissions, their decisions and their votes.

The politicians must be responsible not just for the time that they are in office but, at least for the time of any policies they put in place can remain, and as a minimum the time that the general public and private companies are liable to HMRC for their tax (etc) liabilities.

Then we would see competent decisions made in the best interests of the country and it's citizens, however, this will never happen as it will not make any politicians any money, and that is all they are interested in.

All of them, they don't care about the general public, we are commodity to be traded and manipulated for their benefit.

 
No it is not..... Say a minister of transport decided that from now on there would be no driving tests, and no speed limits, and to do away with the offences of dangerous, reckless etc.  Would it be considered ridiculous to blame them for the resultant risk in road accidents??

john..
Equally ridiculous, its like saying minister removes driving tests when there are no vehicles. The financial instruments involved with the crash and the out of control capital depletion of the banks simply did not exist until 15 plus years after big bang. Hence it actually could have been averted either by a later Tory gov or more likely the Blair Brown tradegy (they really did watch it happen from the front seats.  Agree if the banks were not de-regulated - it could not have happened, but then again if they were not, there would not be the banks as we know it anyway as its a global system.

At least Brown admitted it was a mistake in regulation, not a consequence of de-regulation - see below

"We know in retrospect what we missed. We set up the Financial Services Authority (FSA) believing that the problem would come from the failure of an individual institution," he said. "So we created a monitoring system which was looking at individual institutions. That was the big mistake. We didn't understand how risk was spread across the system, we didn't understand the entanglements of different institutions with the other and we didn't understand even though we talked about it just how global things were, including a shadow banking system as well as a banking system. That was our mistake, but I'm afraid it was a mistake made by just about everybody who was in the regulatory business."

BBC Article: Gordon Brown admits 'big mistake' over banking crisis

 
That's like blaming Vint Cerf for suicides caused by bullying on Facebook, ridiculous


Without deregulation the banks would not have ended up turning into high stake gambling houses. Some form of control to separate 'normal every day banking' from the 'high risk investment non-sense' should have been put in place, however, 'light touch regulation' was Tory policy of the day. This is the same sort of thing that lead to BSE, cos someone decreased the temperature of boiling sheep bits to save money. There was a time when banks could only lend 8 times more than they held in deposits (leveraging as they like to call it these days), deregulation changed all that and banks went from being trusted sorces of financial advice to nothing more than sales reps trying to foister as much debt on people as people were stupid enough to borrow. But @kurt @UNG is arguing that it was all Labours fault, which is rediculous when the 'big bang' was much earlier and the root cuase of the eventual banking crash thta has cost us all £trillions. Any failings by Gordon Brown are insignificant compared to this. 20/20 hindsight is also a marvellous thing :^O

 
see earlier post - no big bang = no banks today as they were all being sucked up by US and Asia banks, Thatcher saved the industry and Brown buggered it up - simples really

 
Equally ridiculous, its like saying minister removes driving tests when there are no vehicles. The financial instruments involved with the crash and the out of control capital depletion of the banks simply did not exist until 15 plus years after big bang. Hence it actually could have been averted either by a later Tory gov or more likely the Blair Brown tradegy (they really did watch it happen from the front seats.  Agree if the banks were not de-regulated - it could not have happened, but then again if they were not, there would not be the banks as we know it anyway as its a global system.

At least Brown admitted it was a mistake in regulation, not a consequence of de-regulation - see below

"We know in retrospect what we missed. We set up the Financial Services Authority (FSA) believing that the problem would come from the failure of an individual institution," he said. "So we created a monitoring system which was looking at individual institutions. That was the big mistake. We didn't understand how risk was spread across the system, we didn't understand the entanglements of different institutions with the other and we didn't understand even though we talked about it just how global things were, including a shadow banking system as well as a banking system. That was our mistake, but I'm afraid it was a mistake made by just about everybody who was in the regulatory business."

BBC Article: Gordon Brown admits 'big mistake' over banking crisis
 The full Brown quote is earlier in this discussion.

Dergulation allowed banks to make shed loads of money which tax receipts from was seriouly helping balance the government finances. I've lawys been of the opinion that ploiticians from all parties, short of any other measn of raising money turned a bit of a blind eye to what the banks were doing. As for banks if they hadn't been de-regulated, well they would have been stable, same as building societies (what few are left).

see earlier post - no big bang = no banks today as they were all being sucked up by US and Asia banks, Thatcher saved the industry and Brown buggered it up - simples really


How did Brown bugger it up then?

 
I think the best way to describe what happened was a Global Sleepwalk by Fed Reserve, BoE, ECB, our FSA - they simply did not understand how inter-linked the banks assets were.

Its a bit like a company having a brand like say "Virgin" - lets say Virgins balance sheet is very healthy but actually when you look at it all their assets are a valuation of the brand "virgin".

All of a sudden "Virgin" brand is trashed by a social media backlash, and hence the company is worth jack. Well many of these banks assets were total lettuced when viewed individually and collectively.

I blame:

Bank CEOs (should be in gaol)

US, UK, Eu regulators for being totally asleep (FFS they don't have that much to do, you would think a healthy banking system would be well up there. (sack the lot)

 
wouldn't disagree with that kurt, bar pressure from banks to leave them alone or they would jump ship to another country possibly had something to do witht he lack of regulation.

Still doesn't explain why It's Browns' fault

 
... pressure from banks to leave them alone or they would jump ship to another country...


Easily sorted, if they want to trade in the UK they pay tax on their turnover in the UK.

NOTE turnover, NOT, I repeat NOT profit.

Else they can go away, and another company willing to pay their fair share of tax on UK turnover will take their place.

 
Brown was chancellor and later PM, he was in charge of the regulatory bodies  from 1997 to 2010. He admits it was a failure on his watch but also states he was of the same thinking as most western economies. i.e. Sleepwalking.... I am only saying Brown because really he is the only elected (not by me) person who we can blame... the rest are civil servants and CEOs of plcs, incs and the like -

 
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