Sparkys And Shed Builders Unite, Guide Me.

[thecat666]

Quick question can you have an Rcd at both ends ie all garage or shed consumer units have a built in Rcd, now from off my head i don't have any Rcd on my house consumer unit. So once i take feed from the back of an interior 2 gang switched socket then hole to outside of house once that's sealed up i can run straight up the garden or first run into a weather proof outside box then run up garden. Weather proof unit with or without built in Rcd.

[SIZE=12pt]Choice 1. This is what i will be doing. Permanent power
 
A. Take feed from rear of interior 2g sw. Skt with 2.5 mm 2 core armoured cable on a 32 m run up the garden to shed.
B. connect to gland then connect live/ neutral to RCD 2 way consumer unit with 6amp/ 16 amp mcb's
C. Connect earth wire to earth rod/ clamp buried in garden - connect other end to brass tag on wire by consumer unit.
D. Run 2.5 mm TWE to 2g sw skts x 3 daisy chained.
E. run 1.5 mm TWE to light switch then to light fittings that are daisy chained.[/SIZE]
 
Am fully aware about Part p.

The reason why I'm going from the back of a socket in my back room is because I can't go straight from my house consumer unit as its under the stairs. Hence coming off the back of a none used socket. is this ok.

 

[Blue Duck]

:C

Not sure what you are trying to achieve? I think 3 core 6mm swa would be more suitable.

There are many different ways this can be done and this is mostly dependent on your supply type and what you intend on doing in your shed?

 

[NozSpark]

How's your earthing conductor in your house?

How's your bonding to any extraneous services?

Is the socket circuit in the house safe and suitable for this addition?

How are you going to test this work?

Who is going to be signing this work off?

Wouldn't it be better to take the origin of this addition from a RCD fused spur off the ring if it's suitable?

 

[Sharpend]

Congratulations you have demonstrated the reason that part p was brought in!!

Leave it get someone who's trained to do it, for your guidance that's an electrician as you clearly haven't got any understanding of the technical issues.

By the way what's your day job?

 

[ProDave]

As others have said, please don't proceed with your plan.

This is not the forum being unhelpful, it's the forum advising you that you don't have enough knowledge to do the job safely.

Get a local electrician to look at the job. I am sure by agreement with him, you can keep the cost down by doing some of the donkey work like burying the SWA in the garden down to the shed for instance, then get him to come and connect it all and test it.  He will be able to advise you the correct way to do what you want to achieve.

 

[Adrian]

play nice 

 

[thecat666]

First off this is the DIY area, I was recommended this forum by a very good friend.

I also read 2005_16_autumn_wiring_matters_electrical_installations_outdoors, and they only thing I can see that maybe wrong is the earthing and the reason for that is I was told over 25 meters I should use an earth stake. Should I?

Blue duck.

Not sure what you are trying to achieve? I think 3 core 6mm swa would be more suitable.
There are many different ways this can be done and this is mostly dependent on your supply type and what you intend on doing in your shed?   

(2.5mm swa most are 23-26 amps my full current draw from all my tools roughly 16 amps so 2.5mm swa should be more than suffice including a bit of voltage drop).

NozSpark.

How's your earthing conductor in your house? (I can see a big stake in the cupboard which I assume is my earth because it has ground coloured sheath wire going to it plus a small earth block as well)
How's your bonding to any extraneous services?
Is the socket circuit in the house safe and suitable for this addition? (Yes, I have checked the ring mains for that room, and only the sockets in that room and the lower hallway are on it. (Total 5 sockets) All the rest are on their own rings)
How are you going to test this work? (Will get someone in)
Who is going to be signing this work off? (Will get someone in)

Wouldn't it be better to take the origin of this addition from a RCD fused spur off the ring if it's suitable? (My house consumer unit doesn’t have any Rcd hence why i was asking about having one Rcd each end).

Sharpend.

Congratulations you have demonstrated the reason that part p was brought in!!
Leave it get someone who's trained to do it, for your guidance that's an electrician as you clearly haven't got any understanding of the technical issues.
By the way what's your day job?

Sharpend who the **** do you think you are talking to like that behave!!!

I have said nothing to you or anyone in any funky manner so what gives you the right to talk to me like that.

ProDave, cheers for your reply

As others have said, please don't proceed with your plan.

This is not the forum being unhelpful, it's the forum advising you that you don't have enough knowledge to do the job safely.

From what I have read and been told, see 2005_16_autumn_wiring_matters_electrical_installations_outdoors the only thing I may have wrong is the earth rod. No not running any water).

Get a local electrician to look at the job. I am sure by agreement with him, you can keep the cost down by doing some of the donkey work like burying the SWA in the garden down to the shed for instance, then get him to come and connect it all and test it.  He will be able to advise you the correct way to do what you want to achieve.

I want to do the work myself as said I’m not lifting floor boards,

from above.

How are you going to test this work? (Will get someone in)
Who is going to be signing this work off? (Will get someone in).

This is the DIY section
As stated at the start this forum was recommended to me, I certainly didn’t think you chaps would be so funky to people using the DIY section. In the main I could understand it a little bit but in this section it says diy so one would have thought you guys would tell or show someone how to do it the diy way to Part p standard but still remind them they need to get it signed off.

Thank you Adrian.

Oh and knowledge, the only thing i can see i may have done wrong is im using alot smaller cable than what electricians would like, i didnt want to use 2.5mm 3 core 10mm 73 amp or 2.5mm 3 core 6mm 53 amp or 2.5mm 3 core 4mm 42 amp or 2.5mm 3 core 31 amps. as i said 16 amps roughly so my run of cable should be more than enough for me and my tools.

 

[Sharpend]

Adrian my dear chap, why don't you try getting a local electrician to come round design it all for you then you install it and let him come back an test it.

Whilst you may have read the wiring matters you do not have the technical understanding to know what you are doing. That would be like me reading the instructions on how to fly a plane then thinking that I could fly a plane?

So whilst this is the DIY section you need to have a pretty good idea of what you are doing, you also need to get some instruction from a man on the ground so to speak. Just because we could tell you what to do doesn't mean that a) you'd do it right, b) that we should.

So if you really want to do it yourself then as I said find a local spark who can oversee what you do them test it's safe. We can't do that virtually for you.

 

[Blue Duck]

Mr cat, or are you an owl? First off wiribg natters from 2005 is maybe a little old? you are looking for 25 amps out of the back of a socket the only way to achieve this would be to extend the ring outside. Probably not a good idea though.

Really the only way to do it from a internal socket is with a spur and that will give you 13amps max.

This isn't an easy job you need to know what your doing some of your suggestions show that you don't know much.

Sharpies: not sure his name is Adrian? ADRIAN!!!!!!! < Rocky II :slap

 

[Andy™]

There are limits to how far we will help someone. helping them with basic stuff, yes. but this isnt as basic and you clearly do not know what you are doing. reading an article in 'wiring matters' does not mean you can do something thats in there. and 'I was told over 25 meters I should use an earth stake' isnt exactly helpful. and going by a load of 'well my mate down the pub said I could do that' doesnt mean your install is going to be done safely

 

[NozSpark]

Hi Adrian

I know that sometimes our advice can come across as "funky" but you really need to sit back and think about what we are trying to achieve.

We are trying to make sure that this "job" is done correctly and in a safe way... We will not benefit from that as out of the 100's of thousands of electricians in this country you are unlikely to ring any of us to come and do it....we really are trying to protect you and your family from yourself

 

[Chewbacca]

keep it friendly....

CAT666 - don't hink you are quite getting the main point the guys are making - ie you don't really know if it safe to take a line off the socket unless you have atually tested the circuit - it may be faulty. Now it also has to be said, not many electricians will sign off work like this for legal reasons. I would recommend you contact an electrician (make sure they are registered first) and discuss what they will or won't do to work with you before you start the job. I'm sure you are keen to save some money, but for myself - I wouldn't touch what you are currently proposing to do unless involved upfront. Like most professional electricians I really don't like siging off anything I haven't supervised, and then only if I get to do all the termination work - it's about standards of wrokmanship..

 

[Pete10001]

Quick question can you have an Rcd at both ends ie all garage or shed consumer units have a built in Rcd, now from off my head i don't have any Rcd on my house consumer unit. So once i take feed from the back of an interior 2 gang switched socket then hole to outside of house once that's sealed up i can run straight up the garden or first run into a weather proof outside box then run up garden. Weather proof unit with or without built in Rcd.

[SIZE=12pt]Choice 1. This is what i will be doing. Permanent power[/SIZE]

A. Take feed from rear of interior 2g sw. Skt with 2.5 mm 2 core armoured cable on a 32 m run up the garden to shed.

B. connect to gland then connect live/ neutral to RCD 2 way consumer unit with 6amp/ 16 amp mcb's

C. Connect earth wire to earth rod/ clamp buried in garden - connect other end to brass tag on wire by consumer unit.

D. Run 2.5 mm TWE to 2g sw skts x 3 daisy chained.

E. run 1.5 mm TWE to light switch then to light fittings that are daisy chained.

Am fully aware about Part p.

The reason why I'm going from the back of a socket in my back room is because I can't go straight from my house consumer unit as its under the stairs. Hence coming off the back of a none used socket. is this ok. So you're going to spur off of a 13amp socket in your house, run an armored up to your shed add 3 more twin sockets and a lighting circuit, so that's 4 spurs from a spur ,not ideal is it in fact is it a bit dodgy/  for sure, are you an Electrician?

 

[binky]

Pete 1001 he clearly isn't an electrician hence this is in the DiY forum. Now there's nothing particularly wrong in what he is proposing, provided it is done correctly. My one main area of concern is he states he can see a big earth spike in his cupboard suggesting he has aTT earth system, yet he seems to have no RCD protection in his house, suggesting his installation may be dangerous/ non-compliant in the first place. Cat666 is starting from the premise that his electrics are safe to modify in the first place....and we all know how wrong that can be :^O

 

[ProDave]

If you must spur from an existing socket, then don't connect it directly.

Instead spur from the socket to an RCD FCU so you have a 13A fuse and RCD protection.

then there's no need for an RCD in the shed CU.

 

[steptoe]

Wonder what the Ze is?

Or indeed Ra,  if he does have a TT, which I doubt due to no upfront RCD

 

[Apache]

I think you are all mean. This is something I'd do in a heartbeat and is all really quite simple and straightforward. We're not looking at installing a kiln out there - it's really hardly any different to a 40m extension lead out to the shed to run some power tools.

If you take it from a socket then ideally I would fit a spur, but if there is an RCD in the main board I cannot see why you want one to the shed (as long as you can achieve double pole isolation.

Your overload protection is the MCB on the ring, the 5A fuse is protecting the smaller lighting cable.

I'd take the 2.5mm to the shed and then straight into the sockets, spur off via a fused (5A) spur down to 1 or 1.5mm for the lighting.

You could practically do it in flex and plug it into the socket.....

[the VD calculator on the tlc site suggests that 2.5mm should be fine - http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Charts/VoltageDrop.html?cable=SWA_3_CoreXLPE&application=underground&max_perct_volt_drop=5&ambient_temp=30&no_circuits=2&circuit_layout=touching&power=3&power_units=1000&voltage=230&length=40&submit=Calculate+Min+Cable+Size)

 

[Sharpend]

Look at that not an ounce of testing mentioned!!!

 

[NozSpark]

So you're going to spur off a spur then Patch???

 

[Apache]

So you're going to spur off a spur then Patch???

Hopefully not. I do own a proper tester and personally would. I would do a simple continuity to ensure all conductors OK before energising.

Lets say this was a spur off a spur - is there any reason the OP can't plug in a 50m extension socket and use the same tools and lighting in the shed? Can you tell me how it is magically any safer or more dangerous?

(the OP has already said he would make this socket redundant so stick a 13A fuse in if it keeps you happy. With overcurrent protection we can spur as many times as we like - as far as I know)