Surge protection, SPDs and LiVE products

[brummydave]

I've been baffled by the responses in various counters this week to my simple question of "What SPDs are you selling most now?"

I thought i'd ask on here, what are people fitting?

As I understand the 18th, unless you do a complicated risk assesment that says otherwise, pretty much any installation or alteration needs surge protection fitted. So i expected the counters to say - brand A is selling everyday, brand B occasionally, etc. But no! Most said we're not really selling many yet. What am I missing?

Last week I found a trade counter in south Birmingham that sells 'Live' products. That's a first outside of Dave Stansfield / SBS!

The shop was offering a 10 way board with 8 RCBOs and TWO SPDs for £130+VAT.

CEF said they're not doing any boards with SPDs in and anyway were out of stock of Proteus surge units but had the yellow 'Surge Protection Devices Ltd' 20kA model in stock at £40+. (That company have had quite a presence at trade shows, NAPIT meetings etc and have a very helpful website : http://www.surgedevices.co.uk)

Denmans have the Lewdens one at £69+ but aren't selling many. They also list the Steeple 40kA one at £41.

Electricfix have the Schneider 20kA at £38+, Wylex 40kA at £92+ and BG 20kA at £63+.

SBS are listing the LiVE devices, 20kA at £12 and 30kA at £18.

This begged the questions. Why would a board need more than one SPD?

Why are 'LiVE' products so much cheaper?

What are the main differences between the manufacturers devices? Schneider says it has replaceable cartridges and it and the Wylex are double width but I'm struggling to find much more!

I look forward to the forum's wisdom .

 

[Evans Electric]

. But no! Most said we're not really selling many yet. What am I missing?

BrummieDeke  here BrummieDave ,

I think you're missing the fact that not many sparks give a shytte  anymore ,  including me .  

I had to look up SPD ,  I thought it something you went to the "special clinic" for after realizing it wasn't Single Pole Device.  

I asked in Denmans a while ago , the answer was a puzzled shake of the head . 

Yep  , risk assessment before you replace a domestic board now... life gits teejus don't it ?  

 

[ProDave]

It's a bit like the response to what non plastic cable clips have you got?

And what CU's with 100A rated rcd's since we can no longer apply diversity to those.

4 years and 1 month and counting down..........

 

[brummydave]

BrummieDeke  here BrummieDave ,

I think you're missing the fact that not many sparks give a shytte  anymore ,  including me .  

That's so sad. I wonder why that is?

I had to look up SPD ,  I thought it something you went to the "special clinic" for after realizing it wasn't Single Pole Device.  

I put SPD as well as surge in the title to help the thread show up in searches (don't get me started on this sites annoying search gestapo!).

Fascinating how your brain deciphers TLAs isn't it!

I asked in Denmans a while ago , the answer was a puzzled shake of the head . 

Yep  , risk assessment before you replace a domestic board now... life gits teejus don't it ?  

It's kinda been done in our heads for years tho, right?

It's a bit like the response to what non plastic cable clips have you got?

Yup. "Linian who?"

And what CU's with 100A rated rcd's since we can no longer apply diversity to those.

I'm struggling with that most to be honest. How do rcbos fit in with diversity/selectivity now?!;

4 years and 1 month and counting down..........

To the end of the world?

 

[ProDave]

I'm struggling with that most to be honest. How do rcbos fit in with diversity/selectivity now?!;

Under the new rules, if you have an 80A rated rcd feeding two 32A, one 16A and 1 6A mcb, that adds up to 86A and without applying diversity as the new rules say, that will be non compliant.

Until the manufacturers all start selling CU's with 100A rated rcd's I suspect this will be ignored en-mass.

To the end of the world?

Until my largest pension starts to pay out, and I can stop being a wage slave and all these silly constant rule changes will become largely irelevant to me.

 

[Rob.]

Under the new rules, if you have an 80A rated rcd feeding two 32A, one 16A and 1 6A mcb, that adds up to 86A and without applying diversity as the new rules say, that will be non compliant.

Until the manufacturers all start selling CU's with 100A rated rcd's I suspect this will be ignored en-mass.

Until my largest pension starts to pay out, and I can stop being a wage slave and all these silly constant rule changes will become largely irelevant to me.

What rule is that?

 

[Blue Duck]

Thought SPD's were decided upon by a risk assessment?

Do you have expensive computer equipment?  - No.

Do you live in an area where lightning strikes are common? - No.

Do you need an SPD? - No.

Job done? 

 

[Murdoch]

Most sparks I talk to these days have given up with following the regs past AMD3 ........................ and there are lots of people doing sparking around me who don't have any books or test kit ........

Makes you wonder why we bother

As for counting down ................... if I can think of a new job that would pay me the same, without all the hassle of being SE, I would quit tomorrow..............................

 

[Hefferl]

The way I read 443.4, no SPD or risk assessment is necessary for single dwelling units where the total value of installation and equipment therein does not justify SPD.

 

[Evans Electric]

4 years and 1 month and counting down..........

Do you plan to pack up on your 65th  or when the pension kicks in , whichever is the earlier  Dave . ?

 

[Murdoch]

Do you plan to pack up on your 65th  or when the pension kicks in , whichever is the earlier  Dave . ?

I suspect his count down is to his 66th birthday .........

 

[Evans Electric]

. and there are lots of people doing sparking around me who don't have any books or test kit ........

I know a lot of the guys who  use  my wholesalers ,   there are a few  , keen as mustard  younger sparks ,  usually the ones in uniform ,  NICEIC  trousers /polo shirt/ sweat shirt / jacket/ baseball cap /toolbox/ gloves  etc   ..... who are like religious zealots , almost clutching the Regs  like a Witness's tract  .

However the great majority are well Part Peed off with it all  and are just trying to earn a living .  They have a working knowledge  but are basically sick of it all.   

Some , a small minority ,  I gleaned after talking with them do not have  a scooby -Doo  , working to the 14th/ 15th  doing maintenance jobs at care homes  & rental properties.   

 

[ProDave]

Do you plan to pack up on your 65th  or when the pension kicks in , whichever is the earlier  Dave . ?

No, 60th

 

[brummydave]

The way I read 443.4, no SPD or risk assessment is necessary for single dwelling units where the total value of installation and equipment therein does not justify SPD.

Thought SPD's were decided upon by a risk assessment?

Do you have expensive computer equipment?  - No.

Do you live in an area where lightning strikes are common? - No.

Do you need an SPD? - No.

Job done? 

it's very very unlikely that a dwelling will have no electronics at all is it? One washing machine or tv costs more than an SPD.

SPDs in the 17th were done by risk assessment but now, if you don't do a risk assessment, you have to fit them.

 

[Murdoch]

No, 60th

Lucky man is all I can say. 

it's very very unlikely that a dwelling will have no electronics at all is it? One washing machine or tv costs more than an SPD.

SPDs in the 17th were done by risk assessment but now, if you don't do a risk assessment, you have to fit them.

Reg number please .....................

 

[brummydave]

Lucky man is all I can say. 

Reg number please .....................

443.4

 

[Hefferl]

443.4

 443.4 says if you dont do a risk assessment you have to fit them except for single dwelling units where the total value of installation and equipment therein does not justify SPD......

 

[brummydave]

I'm getting confused. Beama expands the 443.4 saying

"This means that the electrical installation designer should complete a documented assessment for single dwelling units to determine if the total value of the electrical installation and the equipment connected therein necessitates the cost of SPDs or if the consequential losses are tolerable. This is further explained in IEC 60364-4-44 which states that overvoltage protection is not required for single dwelling units where the total economic value of the electrical installation to be protected is less than five times the economic value of the SPD located at the origin of the installation."

Then they go on to say that "loss of household electronics does not warrant cost of overvoltage protection". So which is it? 5x or not?

It's not a bad thing to fit an SPD, and for £20 for a LiVE unit/MCB it's a no brainer?

 

[brummydave]

Back to the OP though, I asked four questions and so far had useful discussion but no answers. A reminder:

Q1 - what SPDs are you fitting?

Q2 - Why would a board need more than one SPD?

Q3 - Why are 'LiVE' products so much cheaper?

Q4 - What are the main differences between the manufacturers devices?

Thanks in advance

 

[Murdoch]

I'm getting confused. Beama expands the 443.4 saying

"This means that the electrical installation designer should complete a documented assessment for single dwelling units to determine if the total value of the electrical installation and the equipment connected therein necessitates the cost of SPDs or if the consequential losses are tolerable. This is further explained in IEC 60364-4-44 which states that overvoltage protection is not required for single dwelling units where the total economic value of the electrical installation to be protected is less than five times the economic value of the SPD located at the origin of the installation."

Then they go on to say that "loss of household electronics does not warrant cost of overvoltage protection". So which is it? 5x or not?

It's not a bad thing to fit an SPD, and for £20 for a LiVE unit/MCB it's a no brainer?

I think Beama need to subject that statement to the plain English society .... for it to be translated ...