Toddler Electrocuted

[a1]

My feelings would be the same no matter what - exactly the same as you are quick to blame the lad's mother for not watching him!

You watch your child 24 hours do you?

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Also, the boy was in the living room - Yes. There is no mention that I can see that cooker was in the living room with him too. If they had put the living room, being aware that the little lad was playing in there, then that is much worse!

 

[ianmacd]

No but I ensure their environment is safe and I can not image that you do not do the same. It wasn't a moment while she turned away. There are other questions too. Why did they not have the socket protectors in unused sockets (especially in the kids rooms)? They should be free IMO like fire alarms were/are. The kek here, for me at least, is she chose not to employ a proper trade to carry out this work as I am sure any such 'tool of death' would be appropriatly dealt with, but picked a handyman most likely due to cost.

I'm not belittleing the loss for her or the guilt that the handyman is feeling for not removing the fuse, but the handyman was not responcible for the child.

 

[a1]

Socket protectors. Hmm - have you seen the thread on here about them?

Yes, the lad's mother did use a handyman instead of a competent spark, who, by all accounts had no electrical knowledge - yes probably because he was a lot cheaper.

There was two of them there (the handyman and his assisstant) - they could have taken the cooker outside and disposed of the plug and lead by either leaving it in the oven and turning the door against the wall, preventing it from being opened, or threw it in a bin.

 

[ianmacd]

Also, the boy was in the living room - Yes. There is no mention that I can see that cooker was in the living room with him too. If they had put the living room, being aware that the little lad was playing in there, then that is much worse!

Its a bit ambigous. The guy did the work in the living room so if he was using it as his work space, you would hope the child was not playing unsupervised in there.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was made at 15:19 ----------

Socket protectors. Hmm - have you seen the thread on here about them?Yes, the lad's mother did use a handyman instead of a competent spark, who, by all accounts had no electrical knowledge - yes probably because he was a lot cheaper.

There was two of them there (the handyman and his assisstant) - they could have taken the cooker outside and disposed of the plug and lead by either leaving it in the oven and turning the door against the wall, preventing it from being opened, or threw it in a bin.

I would disagree that they should have removed the oven. Do we know that this was not a flat that has no outside space for such items. It may have been going somewhere else so they may not have wanted it outside. If they had have taken it outside then they could have been accused of flytiping.

I would agree that there is no excuse for the plug but the child should not have been left alone by its carer with such a dangeros object as a cooker evern with out the plug there too.

 

[a1]

The guy did the work in the living room so if he was using it as his work space, you would hope the child was not playing unsupervised in there.

Did he? Where did it say that? If that is true, what's to say that the lad's mum didn't call him out and that the Handyman said - "No, he's alright where he is, I don't mind, he's no bother?". We can say he shouldn't have been in there?

 

[ianmacd]

the cable on the new oven was too short so he disconnected the plug in the living room, and left it lying beside the old oven.

 

[a1]

I would disagree that they should have removed the oven. Do we know that this was not a flat that has no outside space for such items. It may have been going somewhere else so they may not have wanted it outside. If they had have taken it outside then they could have been accused of flytiping.

True, But then it should have been turned and faced against the wall, to prevent anyone opening it.

I would agree that there is no excuse for the plug but the child should not have been left alone by its carer with such a dangeros object as a cooker evern with out the plug there too.

He was aware that a child was in the house and he was aware that the lad was playing in the living room. So, don't leave it lying around.

I cut leads and plugs off of old tv's etc - But I dispose of them or I cut or open the plug and remove the said cable. I have explained the dangers of electricity to my children, but who's to say their friends won't come into play and plug it in and touch it.

 

[ianmacd]

And of course you remove the fuses too.

 

[a1]

the cable on the new oven was too short so he disconnected the plug in the living room, and left it lying beside the old oven.

The lad was playing in the living room and the work was being carried out in the kitchen. (no mention that I can see of the handyman using the living room as his workspace - not in the BBC Scotland link that Rev has linked to in his OP).

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And of course you remove the fuses too.

If they are moulded, Yes I do. I save them and the holder! If they aren't moulded, I just remove the cable/flex dispose of that and I may keep the plug, but rarely, as I have a stock of new ones in my shed/workshop anyway.

 

[ianmacd]

The lad was playing in the living room and the work was being carried out in the kitchen. (no mention that I can see of the handyman using the living room as his workspace - not in the BBC Scotland link that Rev has linked to in his OP

That was quoted in a post by Specs above #16. Not sure where he got that from.

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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12752128] Shesaid she supervised her son in the living room while the work was being carried out in the kitchen.The inquiry was told she recalled seeing a plug on a couch before the workmen left but did not realise that wires were exposed and did not see Liam handling it.

Ms Hughes said she went to the kitchen to clear up after the men left with her old oven and could hear Liam in his toy room singing and muttering to himself.

If she saw it why didn't she say something or move it as it looks like they forgot it?

 

[a1]

She probably would have if she didn't have to clear up their mess? Who knows?

 

[ianmacd]

The op's article has more of a slide on it than that one as it plays it as an accident by a forgotten item. I am always forgetting bits here and there and I imagine most people are the same especially on longer jobs.

 

[a1]

The inquiry was told she recalled seeing a plug on a couch before the workmen left but did not realise that wires were exposed and did not see Liam handling it.

Sounds like her priority as any mum probably would, was to clean the mess up in the kitchen to prevent an accident. (again, something that should be done by the workman, whoever it may be).

My comments in my above posts were made (as stated in an earlier post of mine) on the story in the link in the OP. Btw.

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The op's article has more of a slide on it than that one as it plays it as an accident by a forgotten item. I am always forgetting bits here and there and I imagine most people are the same especially on longer jobs.

That can be so, but we are talking of the installation of an oven here, not the re-wire of an occupied mansion.

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Mr Rough said he assumed his assistant had taken it away with the old oven.

Lack of communication. And so they did remove the old cooker/oven.

 

[androiduk2002]

The sad fact is a young life has ended needlessly , the parents will be in pieces and will be blaming themselves for ever more , as will the handyman I am sure.

We are all looking for someone to blame these days ................. sometimes there is not just one person to blame but everyone has to take part of the blame it was just an accident , all accidents are avoidable .

If the handyman had removed the item straight away , if the mother had kept a closer eye on him , if his parents had employed a qualified electrician ,if , if , if , if ................... ifs will not bring the child back .

In the blame culture we live in there is only one group of people that make anything out of it the solicitors, everyone else loses , insurances go up , people get sued , we will all lose at some point .

Tragic is all that remains to be said .

 

[Robojin]

If I chop a moulded plug off, I ALWAYS remove the fuse from it then put it in a bin.If that had been done, the boy in this case would still be alive.

But I do agree, it was multiple failures of care that led to this tragedy.

So do I and immediately, I don't leave it to later, I also render the plug unusable by snapping of the the live lug

 

[philbas]

Its easy to see afterwards what you could have been done to prevent something like this, but in all honesty who could have foreseen this.

As far as I can see the "Handyman" did his job, the parent didnt (would you let your kid go exploring a building site)

And before you mention it, yes i have bought up kids, 7 of them, there all still alive and well.

I'm sorry but in my opion there is to much blame laying today, It always has to be someone elses fault, never yours.

 

[Theorysparky]

Turn of events

mother employed handyman instead of spark

handyman + assistant did not keep a safe work area

mother did not supervise the toddler while in the presence of handyman

handyman did not clear up after himself sufficiently nor had safe working practices

mother should have ensured the handyman had cleared up properly........

Big question i have......

what condition was the house in ?????

was the handyman working in a bomb site ??????

we have all done it,,,mislaid stuff

but it still is a needless waste of life

also there is no such thing as an accident blame lies somewhere

 

[philbas]

Turn of eventsalso there is no such thing as an accident blame lies somewhere

Of course there is such thing as an aciddent, It seems to be something that has been overlooked in litagation UK today. It's always someone elses fault except mine.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

FCOL headbangheadbang

I cannot believe some of us on here are trying to argue the mother is to blame..

Read the bloomin report!!

'Reasonable precautions' Sheriff Miller issued his written judgement following the fatal accident inquiry into Liam's death at Glasgow Sheriff Court last month.

He wrote: "The primary responsibility for satisfying the reasonable precautions of keeping the new cable and plug in a place where Liam could not get at them while the work was being done, and for removing them as part of the necessary task of clearing up whatever tools and equipment he had brought to the house must rest with the person undertaking the job, Mr Rough.

"He knew that Liam, a small boy, was in the living room while he was carrying out the task of replacing the old oven in the next door room, the kitchen.

"He ought to have taken account of Liam's presence and young age to the extent of recognising that his work equipment of whatever description, and that includes the new cable and plug, would be a source of interest if not fascination to Liam.

"By reason of his young age, this brought with it a significantly enhanced risk that the natural curiosity of a small boy had the potential to lead him into doing something that might injure himself even if his mother were also present in the same room."

Bottom line is ANY 'Handyman/tradesperson/DIYer/Electrical professional'

(call him what you want) should never go leaving plugs with fuses and bare wires attached lying around for any unskilled person to pickup...

Oh and by the way..

the report DOES say the cable was on the plug..

or how did the toddler manage to get one wire in each hand? ?:|

expert witness James Madden, a principal specialist inspector in electrical engineering with the Health and Safety Executive.Mr Madden had concluded that little Liam had "grasped the bare wires of the live conductor in one hand and the bare wires of the neutral conductor in the other".

p.s. read the other links to the article as well..

AND don't start trying to pick petty unrelated issues such as should have socket covers fitted...

FCOL...

The toddler could have unplugged one of these OR any other plug in the room to plug his "New Toy" wire in the wall...

If the plug and wire hadn't been left then he wouldn't have been able to plug it in!

end of!!

 

[Badger]

FCOL headbangheadbangI cannot believe some of us on here are trying to argue the mother is to blame..

Read the bloomin report!!

Bottom line is ANY 'Handyman/tradesperson/DIYer/Electrical professional'

(call him what you want) should never go leaving plugs with fuses and bare wires attached lying around for any unskilled person to pickup...

Oh and by the way..

the report DOES say the cable was on the plug..

or how did the toddler manage to get one wire in each hand? ?:|

p.s. read the other links to the article as well..

AND don't start trying to pick petty unrelated issues such as should have socket covers fitted...

FCOL...

The toddler could have unplugged one of these OR any other plug in the room to plug his "New Toy" wire in the wall...

If the plug and wire hadn't been left then he wouldn't have been able to plug it in!

end of!!

maybe not but i think the blame lies on the parents and the handyman, the parents should have been supervising such a young child full stop !! and the handyman should not have left that sort of plug and cable lying around, so in my views both parties are at fault with a 50% split across the board, handyman was neglegant to leave something a lethal a that and the parent was neglegant to not be around watching that child while work was being carried out