Toddler Electrocuted

[Sidewinder]

It is not possible to supervise a child at all times.

The wire should not have been there.

The mother should have been keeping a closer eye on the child as there was work going on.

There should have been communications between worker & mother over the situation.

There are too many possible failings.

There are too many unknowns.

We really should not be debating blame as we are not in possession of the full facts.

We all forget things, or loose things.

We all should be more careful in all aspects of our lives.

There is such a thing as an unforeseen incident aka an accident.

There is not always somewhere to put the blame.

I am not going to apportion blame in this incident.

All I will say is it is a tragic loss of a young life.

I don't think we should really be trying to apportion blame or such things here.

All that will do is divide the forum and none of us have sufficient information to be right.

That is unless the handyman and mother are here to give their sides, along with the other professional witnesses from the coroners inquest.

 

[Doc Hudson]

For those genuinely interested further reading can be found, DETERMINATION FOLLOWING AN INQUIRY INTO THE DEATH OF LIAM JOSEPH BOYLE UNDER FATAL ACCIDENTS AND SUDDEN DEATHS INQUIRY (SCOTLAND) ACT 1976 v. , 25 March 2011, Sheriff I. Miller, However as Sidewinder suggests it is not a good topic to be debating on here-say. I fear some of our members are making incorrect assumptions, I am inclined to agree with the experts involved directly in the case and will pass no further judgments.

Doc H.

 

[Theorysparky]

Doc

if you feel that way then in the best interests of the forum it should be removed

guys on here are discussing this topic on what events caused this tragic episode

it serves as a reminder to all of us to be vigilant of the risks,hazards and potential problems at work

us chatting about it may savew another life/injury

its made me think

 

[philbas]

I think its a very good topic to be debating.

Untill we get all the facts we cant make a judgement, we can all argee its a tragic waste of a young life.

However and this is a cut and paste from Docs link

(4) In terms of section 6(1)(d) of the said Act, that there were no defects in any system of working which contributed to his death; and

(5) In terms of section 6(1)(e) of the said Act, that there were and are no other facts which are relevant to the circumstances of his death.

In other words it was an accident, with no one realy to blame, they do happen

 

[Doc Hudson]

Doc if you feel that way then in the best interests of the forum it should be removed

guys on here are discussing this topic on what events caused this tragic episode

it serves as a reminder to all of us to be vigilant of the risks,hazards and potential problems at work

us chatting about it may save another life/injury

its made me think

I do not wish to stifle polite debate, or restrict topics that can be discussed on the forum. As you say it is a very stark reminder we are all working with an invisible substance that can kill or seriously injure. But there is possibly only so far that a blame apportioning debate can reach in this instance. We need to be respectful and considerate of those still grieving for this tragic loss of life. A mother no longer has the joy of watching her child grow up, has already lost 2 years, the fatal event was 28 February 2009, and I suspect every year when birthdays, Christmas and 28 Feb comes around she will have much sadness due to a simple act of negligence which could so easily have been avoided. I think some of the comments from the official documents could be of useful guidance to all contractors undertaking work in homes with children present.

[41] The primary responsibility for satisfying the reasonable precautions of keeping the new cable and plug in a place where Liam could not get at them while the work was being done, and for removing them as part of the necessary task of clearing up whatever tools and equipment he had brought to the house must rest with the person undertaking the job, Mr Rough. He knew that Liam, a small boy, was in the living room while he was carrying out the task of replacing the old oven in the next door room, the kitchen. He ought to have taken account of Liam's presence and young age to the extent of recognising that his work equipment of whatever description, and that includes the new cable and plug, would be a source of interest if not fascination to Liam, and that by reason of his young age this brought with it a significantly enhanced risk that the natural curiosity of a small boy had the potential to lead him into doing something that might injure himself even if his mother were also present in the same room. Quite how Mr Rough ought to have achieved the result of keeping the new cable and plug out of Liam's reach I would not feel it right to prescribe. It might have been, as the Crown suggest, by keeping them on or near his person but I cannot conclude that that was an appropriate response in the circumstances. Had it occurred to Mr Rough to take appropriate precautions there might have been many other possible and appropriate ways by which he might have achieved that result.

[42] As for removing the new cable and plug at the end of the job it seems to me that common sense dictates that being in charge of a job extends to the task of clearing up after it has been completed. To that I would add that that includes that person satisfying himself that he, and anyone working under him, has completed the task of clearing up, certainly to the extent of removing all tools and equipment however brought on site for the purposes of the job. That this general requirement needs stating in clear terms is given added force by the observation of Mr Madden in his report that leaving the new cable and plug behind in the house was an error that might have been made by other people regardless of the extent of their electrical competences which he elaborated in his oral evidence to include qualified electricians.

[43] I am also of the opinion that if a tool or piece of equipment be unaccounted for at the end of the job, then its whereabouts should be investigated before leaving the work site without it. In this case if the new cable and plug were no longer in sight in the living room at the time when Mr Rough was clearing up, in my opinion he, knowing that he had placed them in the living room, ought to have investigated their whereabouts and satisfied himself on that before leaving the house finally whether that be by retrieving them from wherever they were in the house, or by confirming with Mr Burns that he had removed them from the house and taken them to his van.

Doc H.

 

[Theorysparky]

I think its a very good topic to be debating.Untill we get all the facts we cant make a judgement, we can all argee its a tragic waste of a young life.

However and this is a cut and paste from Docs link

(4) In terms of section 6(1)(d) of the said Act, that there were no defects in any system of working which contributed to his death; and

(5) In terms of section 6(1)(e) of the said Act, that there were and are no other facts which are relevant to the circumstances of his death.

In other words it was an accident, with no one realy to blame, they do happen

really ????

well we are talking about Scotland

 

[steptoe]

So Are you suggesting because I said she should have been watching her child, I do not have a daughter?Also, the kid had a play room. Why was he not secured in there (like a dog would have been) while the Handyman was working and until the sharp large non play item was removed from the lounge? Plug or no plug, the lounge was not a suitable area for a child to play unobserved at that time.

You are very quick to blame the Handyman despite, by your own admission, not knowing the full story. Would your blambe be targeted elswhere if it had been a friend, not a handyman, that poped round to fit the oven?

says it all really about your perspective on this ,,,,,,,,,,

my tuppence,

someone has lost the most precious thing they will most likely ever attain, and here we are arguing over who is to blame,

accidents happen,

some things simply cant be avoided, others can,

one thing is for sure,

one little soul isnt going to have any more birthdays,

:_|

sometimes I hate this place,

 

[pickleye]

Blaming people aside, failings on both sides. A lesson has been learned from this tragedy / thread.

I have previously cut off flexes (never with stripped ends) and left them to be thrown out - in a minute.

I will never again do this, I will always remove the fuse and damage the plug beyond use, before i put it down. I will pass this on to everyone i ever see cut off a plug.

 

[sprocketflup]

Blaming people aside, failings on both sides. A lesson has been learned from this tragedy / thread.I have previously cut off flexes (never with stripped ends) and left them to be thrown out - in a minute.

I will never again do this, I will always remove the fuse and damage the plug beyond use, before i put it down. I will pass this on to everyone i ever see cut off a plug.

Was just about to author something similair myself. This thread has certainly taught me something.

Rip little fella

 

[Clamper]

I'll never forget this lesson.., the sad thing is that he would have seen the handyman working with cable and socket outlets, if it hadn't been the old plug it could have easily been a pen or screwdriver later, after the work had been done and the waste removed, every socket needs to be protected from a child and I'll double check there are none missing first thing.

Spread the word and may he rest in peace.

 

[Apache]

every socket needs to be protected from a child and I'll double check there are none missing first thing.

Your not talking about the child killing socket covers?

 

[steptoe]

I'll never forget this lesson.., the sad thing is that he would have seen the handyman working with cable and socket outlets, if it hadn't been the old plug it could have easily been a pen or screwdriver later, after the work had been done and the waste removed, every socket needs to be protected from a child and I'll double check there are none missing first thing.Spread the word and may he rest in peace.

Your not talking about the child killing socket covers?

my thought s exactly apache,

get the link up please my friend.

ray ray

 

[Clamper]

Haven't seen the the article but surely they're safer than accessible terminals and a switch.

 

[Apache]

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/general-chat-area/10562-socket-kiddie-protectors.html

 

[steptoe]

Haven't seen the the article but surely they're safer than accessible terminals and a switch.

sockets that meet British Standards do NOT have accessible contacts,

another reason I suppose to always get a reputable electrician, who will only use BS approved kit.

 

[Clamper]

Can't argue though in this case he'd still be here, would be the same with any two pronged item and the covers shown in that article are clearly rubbish and should be banned but a BS cover to stop kids sticking plugs in the right way or upside down to expose terminals would be a good thing. Each of mine are solid and flat not raised like the ad and are very difficult to remove. Mine are staying

 

[Apache]

Mine are staying

Foolhardy.

You'd be amazed what kids with a little time and patience can do.

I handed a 'child proof' bottle of medication to an owner the other day. The owner was clicking the top around and having bother opening it. The little kid [i'll guess 5 years old, head lower than my consulting table] took the bottle of mum and opened it! The mother commented that she could never get into those things.

It's the child's inquisitive persistent nature that took their life that started this whole thread.

 

[pickleye]

Just watched the videos on the link - OMG as the kids say. I've seen hundreds of these things in use. I'll pass on the web site details

 

[steptoe]

Clamper, up to you, I have a 3yr old and my missus has a load, sorry had, I binned them, any child from about crawling age can get these things out given time,

they are not BS anything cos there is no BS for them relating to anything electrical, they are simply plastic bits.

have you watched all the videos?

your choice really at the end of the day,

personally,

my choice everytime is my sons safety,

I dont know if you read the linked thread, but I even have his nursery take on board the points and I now think they have them banned in all their nurseries.

 

[Doc Hudson]

As has already been said the problem in this case was 13a fused plug connected to some flex, with uninsulated ends exposed left lying around. The child was not poking inappropriate items into a socket. Rather simply plugging a correct approved plug into an approved socket outlet, which he had already learned to to. The report on his death states he has previously learned to unplug the television and plug it back in again and found it amusing watching it go off and on. So I doubt socket covers would have provided to much of a barrier, I understand this point is also mentioned somewhere in the investigation into his death.

Doc H.