Using electricty monitor for billing purposes

[Rob_the_rich]

I have been asked to fit a secondary meter to a ground floor so that the managers of the building can bill the users on a daily basis. The ground floor is a café with different chefs every day.

I haven't looked at the electrics yet but I gather that there is 1 phase, 1 meter and 1 CU. Will go there later in the week.

I also assume that there is 2 or 3 circuits solely supplying the ground floor.

Thinking of using an efergy elite classic electricity monitor http://efergy.com/media/download/manuals/eliteclassic_uk_instructions_web2012.pdf and use 2 or 3 sensors clipped to the live conductors of the 2 or 3 circuits.

The billing doesn't have to be totally accurate, as it would be better than the current guesswork.

Anybody used this for this? Advice?

I have emailed the manuf, but probably won't get a reply for a couple of days.

 

[Manator]

I would be very careful here, legally the landlord cannot charge for electricity over than or above what they use. They can charge an admin charge for collection but that is about it. The best way is to split the load through a henley and meter the flat, or cafe. The bill can go to the landlord and then be split between the cafe. Monitoring from a single consumer unit will always be dubious and could be challenged.

 

[Sharpend]

I'd agree with manator here totally separate the two, the type that you have chosen would be more an in house monitoring system IMO 

 

[Andy™]

fitting a proper electric meter would be the way to go. energy monitor is unlikely to be accurate enough

 

[Tony S]

Have a read of this

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/resale-gas-and-electricity-guidance-maximum-resale-price-updated-october-2005

 

[phil d]

There's a place I've used before for meters,they are very reasonable,I think Tony used them once also.

http://www.universalmeterservices.co.uk/new-single-phase-meters-c-3.html?zenid=9g8jn5f00vho59nq487kumma01

 

[Andy™]

@megger mark also sells electric meters

 

[phil d]

@megger mark also sells electric meters

that's handy to know,cheers Andy.

 

[binky]

an energy meter is not calibrated to OFGEM standards, so that is a serious no-no in very legal terms. You can get a single phase meter for around £15+VAT, you may need to install a sub-main & mini-DB to pick up multiple circuits. You can legal clamp type metering from the likes of ISKRA, but you won't like the prices much!

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Have a read of this

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/resale-gas-and-electricity-guidance-maximum-resale-price-updated-october-2005

Thanks for all the replies everyone. It is an entirely commercial property, that OFGEM doc applies only to domestic, or part domestic, and anyway says that estimates are allowed. Using a monitor would seem an ideal way to estimate share of bills even in a domestic situation.

It just seems to me to be a cost effective way of doing it for the clients.

I will see what they say when I visit, I might even get some free grub.

Thanks again

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes the OFGEM doc applies only to domestic.

However, IIRC there is another doc that applies to accuracy of metering.

Again this will be under ESQCR, so it will be statute law.

It is doubtful that an energy monitor would be suitably accurate to meet these requirements.

 

[Tony S]

Every one may be happy at first but if there is a disagreement to a “share” of the bill then the landlord could be in hot water.

All you can do is point out the pitfalls, after that it’s their decision.

I’ve only been involved in metered supplies from private networks as far as the supply to the property. Just like the DNO’s, our estates department looked after the rest. Even though a supply off our network worked out about 60% less than a public supply we still got moaned at. There’s no pleasing some people.

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Can't find that other doc Sidewinder, found this https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electricity-meter-certification which says;
 

Secondary metering

Meters need not be certified where the supplier does not hold a supply license. This provides for situations where the supplier might be a landlord selling electricity on to tenants, or a caravan park owner billing individual berth occupiers. However, a written agreement must be in place between the two parties to dispense with the requirement for certification and the meter owner is obliged to use an approved meter and keep the metrology of the meter accurate.

not sure what an "approved" meter is, do the suppliers mentioned above sell "approved" meters?

Is keeping metrology (wiki " the science of measurement. Metrology includes all theoretical and practical aspects of measurement") accurate easy to do with secondary meters? suppose it just means the readings make sense WRT the primary meter.

As Tony says I will try to point out the pitfalls, and it will be up to them. The consensus here is definitely for a proper secondary meter though.

 

[Sidewinder]

Rob, try speaking to @megger mark about this he sells meters that are suitable for FIT so he I would guess would be able to guide you, or get one of his suppliers to provide some info.

 

[apprentice87]

An "approved" meter is one that ofgem have approved for use for measuring quantities of electricity for sale... [big surprise!]

"Schedule 4

For electricity meters only, after a formal approval certificate has been issued, the meter will then be listed in Schedule 4 of the Meters (Certification) Regulations (SI 1998/1566). This is a statutory register of all pattern approved electricity meters suitable for billing purposes in the UK."

And here is the list..

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/479369/Schedule_4_-_24th_November_15.pdf

john...

 

[binky]

commercial customers are just as entitled to accurate bills as anyone else. Would you be happy with an estimate???

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Thanks John, meter it is then.

Oddly, it seems that for commercial or secondary meters, there is no need for them to be certified, but must be approved if used for billing, but to be on the "approved" list they have first to be certified. funny old world.

Thanks again for replies.

 

[binky]

it doesn't have to be for billing, a lot of commercial premises have multiple metering points as part of enrgy reduction requirements. Can't remember the details but I recall a few yeasr ago that places like factories are suppossed to install metering at sub boards to aid energy management and hence reduction. If metering for non-billing purposes then there is no need for calibration standards and any cheap indicator of energy used is acceptable.

 

[ISSWWW]

Thanks for all the nice comments, we do sell MID approved meters for billing for around £14.00 plus Vat and currently have around 2000 in stock.

The clip below is taken off our suppliers website, they know their stuff and have been doing this a long time.

Did you know that there are clearly defined laws and regulations governing the manufacture and use of electricity & gas meters in the EU and the UK? The purpose of these regulations is to protect the consumer by ensuring that all meters are manufactured under controlled conditions to meet stringent standards.

Only by legislating and controlling the use of meters in the UK can consumers be confident that they are being metered accurately and charged fairly. It isn’t illegal to use unapproved meters for monitoring energy supplies but IT IS illegal to use unapproved meters for billing purposes.

It is therefore essential that Landlords and Property Managers understand their legal obligation to use approved meters for billing purposes. The consequences of using unapproved meters are that tenants may have a right to refuse to pay for their energy and the Landlord may be liable to prosecution.

Useful link

Useful link

 

[Rob_the_rich]

Went there today and there is a separate CU for the 3 café circuits. TNS, 100a cutout, meter, henly block, 2CUs. Bonding looks ok. All the tails are sheathed and there is ample length on the café tails. So meter it definitely is.

Thanks again for replies. I do overthink things sometimes :Blushing