Wago connectors pulled on assessment

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Cactus Jack

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Hi. Please help

Had NICEIC assessment today. Assessor went mental because I have used wago in inaccessible location. He claims they are not bs5733 mf as required by amendment 1. He wants a rework.

I have searched wago site and can not find any reference to mf. Do any of you have any info?

Thanks

I only use them these days Black JB's are old hat. Wagos are much faster and maintenance free.
 
I have moved this post and started a new thread for you, you will get a better response.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was made at 17:01 ----------

Just out of interest why did he say they did not comply?

 
Apparently they do not meet the requirements of bs5733 in that the wago needs to be placed in an enclosure for additional insulation protection and the wagobox itself is an empty box that does not require a tool to open and has no securing cable gland to secure the cable to the box and therefore it can't be classed as mf

Having said that I personally think the niceic are a load of ****

Wago have brought out a new style mf jb but I've seen them and they are the same price, similar design to Ashley or even click and not as easy to use as either or a wago + wago box

 
What did you use them in? they are waiting for their 'MF' status last time I spoke to them.

 
https://www.connexbox.com/

Not conclusive I know, but the text within the main picture of this web page states "100% safe, secure and maintenance free. Get the job done, with Wago connectors and the revolutionary iPCC junction box"

 
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Apparently they do not meet the requirements of bs5733 in that the wago needs to be placed in an enclosure for additional insulation protection and the wagobox itself is an empty box that does not require a tool to open and has no securing cable gland to secure the cable to the box and therefore it can't be classed as mfHaving said that I personally think the niceic are a load of ****

Wago have brought out a new style mf jb but I've seen them and they are the same price, similar design to Ashley or even click and not as easy to use as either or a wago + wago box
Not what I wanted to hear! Used in a wagobox. Have done a search they are advertised as mf....Although not as bs5733

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:21 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:02 ----------

]Just out of interest why did he say they did not comply?
Just noticed this.

Just said they are not up to bs5733 standards and therefore can not be used. Apparently amendment 1 requires connectors to have a higher spec before they can be classed as mf. He said only Ashley have a compliant product??

 
Unless he could back it up with hard evidence id be tempted to tell him to do one.

 
Interesting stuff.

I've never been a wago fan, preferring a good old fashioned crimp connections instead.

It's also interesting how different industries favour different things.

In the sparky world, it seems wago's (and other brands of push fit connectors) are the answer to maintenance free connectors.

But, the industrial machinery business, where I previously worked for a number of years look down their nose at them as cheap, shoddy and unreliable.

Now I know control panels are accessible, so there's no issue using screw connectors. I just find it interesting how industrial panel builders hate push fit connectors as "unreliable" yet sparkies have taken to them as fit and forget maintenance free solutions.

It's certainly not helpful when you get conflicting information from different people.

But then again in the plumbing world, I much prefer a nicely soldered copper yorkshire fitting to a push fit plastic fitting.

 
Interesting stuff.But then again in the plumbing world, I much prefer a nicely soldered copper yorkshire fitting to a push fit plastic fitting.
At least you know the county that does it the correct way:)

 
I would write to the NICEIC stating an objection to why you need to do remedial works and ask for a written explanation of why the connectors do not meet the required standard.

For reference use the BS7671.

So we have BS5733,Specification for general requirements for electrical accessories.

Providing the connectors are used as instructed you will find that they do comply, and BS7671 even gives us a reason why they should comply 133.5

 
unless things have changed 526.3 (vi)

 
ProDave,

I understand your point about machinery connections, & I'm sure you have realised by now that I have a significant background in this area.

I actually worked for a controls systems product manufacturer and we were fitting spring cage connections, very similar to the push fit type and they were found to be as reliable as the screw terminals/

We had a global failure database and every repair undertaken by our repair facilities in every country throughout the world logged to this not just warranty but chargeable repairs also.

Before this I was working in factory maintenance and we were an early adopter back in the late 80's of push fit airline fittings.

We had great success, quicker installs, and easier disconnections for component replacement, but, they had to be fitted correctly.

Now your last point, I prefer end feed to solder ring, but I do agree with the aesthetics of either soldered joint over that of a polymer or even copper or brass push fit.

 
unless things have changed 526.3 (vi)
Sorry but 133.5, the time scale for approval is not mentioned in BS7671 and therefore can not be precluded from use unless they fail the approved testing and do not gain the MF status.

 
Hi Guys,

In reponse to your questions here is some information about the Wagobox Junction Box System, Wago connectors and the MF Logo

What is the MF logo?

The MF logo was introduced in BS5733:2010 "General Requirements for electrical accessories" as a marking that can be used on accessories to indicate that the accessory doesn't require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation.

What is BS5733:2010?

BS5733 is a British Standard which specifies tests to check the safety in normal use of electrical accessories not covered by other specific British standards.

Is the MF logo mentioned in BS7671: Requirements for Electrical Installations?

Yes, the MF logo is mentioned in BS7671 Amendment No. 1. 2011 in Section 526.3 (vi).

Section 5 deals with the Selection and Erection of Equipment.

Subsection 526. Electrical Connections:

Requirement 526.3 Every connection shall be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance except for the following:

...

526.3(vi) Equipment complying with BS5733 for a maintenance free accessory and marked with the symbol MF and installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

How has this changed from the previous edition of BS7671?

In the previous edition of BS7671 the regulation 526.3(v) was "A joint forming part of the equipment complying with the appropriate product standard."

This was widely accepted as a BSEN60670-22 junction box with maintenance free terminals as this is indicated in Appendix 15 of BS7671: Ring and Radial final circuit arrangements: "A junction box to BSEN60670-22 with screw terminals must be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance or alternatively use maintenance free terminals."

The Wagobox and Wago terminals are still Maintenance Free, that hasn't changed. It's BS7671 that has changed and now requires an accessory to use terminals tested to BS5733 Maintenance Free screwless terminals.

So is BSEN60670-22 not an applicable junction box standard anymore?

BSEN60670-22 is still the applicable standard for junction boxes and continues to be referenced in many places within BS7671.

What does the MF mark mean?

The MF mark indicates that an accessory "does not require further inspection, testing or maintenance after installation in a circuit and incorporates screwless terminals (re: 14.5 Terminals for use within maintenance free accessories) and cable clamps to secure associated cables" (From section 3.31 BS5733:2010).

Section 14.5 within the BS5733:2010 details a number of tests that need to be performed on the screwless terminals to establish that they are appropriate for use in a MF marked accessory.

Can the Wagobox have the MF mark?

In order to put an MF mark on the Wagobox we must use terminals which satisfy the tests set out in BS5733 for maintenance free screwless terminals.

The Wagobox and Wagobox - Light boxes are designed to be used with the Wago 773, 222 and 224 ranges of screwless terminals. These terminals are already tested compliant with BSEN90998-1 (Connecting devices for low voltage circuits for household and similar purposes), as well as:

Mechanical Tests

* Pull-Out Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2, IEC/EN 60999-1

* Shock Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-27, 60068-2-30; Railway Applications IEC/EN 61373

* Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6; Shipbuilding GL, LR, DNV; Railway Applications EN 61373

Electrical Tests

* Temperature-Rise Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 1-61984

* Derating Curve to IEC/EN 60512-5-2

* Voltage Drop Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Short-Time Withstand Current Test (Short-Circuit Withstand Capacity) to IEC/EN 60947-7-1

* Insulation Parameters to IEC/EN 60664-1

* Power-Frequency Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60998-1

* Rated Impulse Withstand Voltage Test to IEC/EN 60664-1

* IP Ratings for Electrical Equipment to IEC/EN 60529

Material Tests

* Needle Flame Test to IEC/EN 60695-2-2

* Glow-Wire Test to IEC/EN 60998-1, IEC/EN 60695-2-11

Environmental Tests

* Temperature Cycling Test to IEC/EN 60947-7-1, IEC/EN 60998-2-2

* Industrial Atmospheres to EN ISO 6988, IEC 60068-2-42, IEC/EN 60068-2-60

* Salt Spray Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-11, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV

* Quick Change of Temperature to IEC/EN 60068-2-14

* Damp Heat, Cyclic (12 + 12 Hour Cycle) to IEC/EN 60068-2-30, Marine Applications GL, LR, DNV as a wide range of Mechanical, Electrical, Material and environmental tests.

They have also been extensively tested and approved by many safety standards (e.g. UL,KEMA EUR, DVE, CSA etc) for use in different geographic areas around the world.

Incredibly, BS5733:2010 only references one (Vibration Test to IEC/EN 60068-2-6) of the above internationally recognised tests. All the other MF terminal tests in BS5733 are neither documented or used in any other internationally recognised product standard.

Despite all of the above and the flawless operation of billions of Wago 773, 222 and 224 terminals around the world, these new tests will still need to be performed on the Wago 773, 222 and 224 terminals before we can consider putting an MF symbol on the Wagobox or Wagobox-Light for the UK market.

These tests are being done and when we have had verification that the Wago terminals comply with the MF terminal requirements set out in BS5733 we will then be able to mark the Wagobox system with an MF.

Why is it taking so long?

Wago are a large multinational company with an excellent safety record that has spent millions of Euros developing and testing their products to internationally recognised product standards. BS5733 is not a product standard and the MF terminal tests detailed in BS5733 are not required anywhere else other than in BS7671 which is a UK standard. The new tests include very long duration tests which take an extended period to complete and are consequently very expensive. This additional need for further tests on a product already in production has taken some considerable commitment and effort by Wago in Germany to include this further testing into their scheduled program of work.

How does this effect my past installations?

It doesn't. Standards are never applied retrospectively.

What about installations I've done recently?

Please refer to 511.2 in BS7671. At this stage it's a case of the designer of the installation being satisfied that the use of the product offers the same degree of safety as afforded by compliance.

I hope that this has been helpful, if you have any further queries regarding MF and the Wagobox system then please do get in touch and we will be happy to try and answer any questions.

 
Thank you very much for your input this will be most helpful, keep up the good work guys! :Applaud

 
excellent post Mr wago

nowJack all you need to do is put a little comment in the deviations box of your cert to the effect that your MF teminals do not meet BS7671 but you are satisfied they are adequate due to the fact they meet every other F'in standard in the world except this extra numpty one dreamt up by somebody trying to justify their job, and pulled by a plonker of a jobsworth niceic pratt that probably passed a 5ww yesterday that had to borrow a meter of his mate the plumber and showed him an install done by someone else.

rant over, and no punctuation cos I didnt want to stop mid flow!

 
Thank you Ray, I did know that the testing is being done but forgot to use the retrospective rule, I do however still use them for all my maintenance free connections and since I am the designer of the installation I would like to see if any assessor would like to argue with me on the requirements!

 
Sorry but 133.5, the time scale for approval is not mentioned in BS7671 and therefore can not be precluded from use unless they fail the approved testing and do not gain the MF status.
No need to say sorry. And I am not saying dont use them I get through quite a few and usually have a good chat to wagobox when ordering them. Although you can see why NIC are erring on the side of caution not that I think they will fail but I know nothing of the testing procedure.

 
The problem with the NICEIC [cannot speak for others] is that they sometimes suffer from 'dilusions of adequacy'!

Years ago I had one that went 'moody' on me all day as I used Square D boards on Domestics and 'He' did not like them as it was hard to get the cover back on! FFS what the frick was it do with him! Most of the time he was too idle to take a cover off and got me as the QS to do it for him........tickin frossers....... :coat

 
I would like to say that assessors are people too, and sometimes are more confused than us! Next assessment ask them for the coffee and tell them if they have not brought any biscuits make sure they do next time they want to assess you.

 
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