Warmup Underfloor heating issue

[ProDave]

The reason I suggested not to get an EICR done is perhaps a sad reflection of some in our trade, that the OP is likely to get a long list of things that need doing, probably starting with a new CU "because it is a plastic one" etc.

What he really wants is someone to find and fix the fault(s) he has, not someone to scare him into work for "faults" that might not comply with current regs, but is not dangerous.

 

[Murdoch]

This issue reminds me of a fault a customer had many years ago!

Similar board - single up front RCD, very occasional tripping and got worse when it was cold / snowy!

Couldn't find the issue, too random to replicate

Customer agreed to a RCBO board, which then narrowed it down to the downstairs lighting circuit ..... retests ..... nothing, and this included taking many lights down / off walls etc

In the end, by pure chance the customer decided to change the light fittings in the kitchen ............. and when taking one down I noticed a very slight "rust" mark on the "stem" of one of the lights ......  and the conclusion was that moisture was forming on the light, running into the lamp fitting and causing a N-E fault.

Once the lights were changed, the customer never had a RCD tripping event again, that couldn't be explained by a faulty toaster, iron or kettle

 

[Doc Hudson]

The reason I suggested not to get an EICR done is perhaps a sad reflection of some in our trade, that the OP is likely to get a long list of things that need doing, probably starting with a new CU "because it is a plastic one" etc.

What he really wants is someone to find and fix the fault(s) he has, not someone to scare him into work for "faults" that might not comply with current regs, but is not dangerous.

An "electrician" not competent to do a proper EICR is also probably not competent to do appropriate investigation, testing and diagnosis of the fault symptoms.  Your logic suggests someone doing fault investigations is more competent than another undertaking an EICR?

Who's to say an incompetent person asked to investigate the fault doesn't just come back with scare stories about needing full rewire to resolve the tripping? An EICR is just an observation of the condition of an installation, and if done correctly, along with other information will come back with verification about the condition of the fixed wiring and the characteristics of the RCD, which will both be needed, IMHO, as part of the fault investigation of the tripping problem. i.e. Some of the same testing encompassed both remits Fault & EICR. 

Are we now saying an installation 15years old would require an EICR, unless the customer has a fault, in which case the EICR requirement becomes irrelevant?

Doc H.

 

[binky]

I see from your picture  you have two circuits switched out  ( That garden pump could have been high on the list !)   

I wonder if these ccts have been fully disconnected within the board, ie eath and neutrals removed?

 

[Evans Electric]

I'd say not to be honest .  None of that helps does it . 

 

[binky]

I find it quite interesting how a few others have suggested an EICR is not important. Whilst I know they are not compulsory, yet BS7617 does recommend 10year or change of occupancy.  I am curious to know how far overdue an inspection, would an installation need to be, before you recommended a customer organised a periodic inspection at their earliest convenience? Or do you never suggest installations are routinely checked for any signs of deterioration?

best electrical systems I have tested are usually 30/ 40  odd years old and not been fiddled with!  So whilst I tend to suggest an inspection might be a good idea, it is not my first base and not that important to me, unless I can see 'things of concern' or customer is reporting a problem clearly caused by DiY, bad fiddling needing further investigation.

 

[Doc Hudson]

best electrical systems I have tested are usually 30/ 40  odd years old and not been fiddled with!  So whilst I tend to suggest an inspection might be a good idea, it is not my first base and not that important to me, unless I can see 'things of concern' or customer is reporting a problem clearly caused by DiY, bad fiddling needing further investigation.

Its not uncommon to identify rings with broken continuity, or sockets with reversed polarity, or missing earths, or circuits bridging two circuit breakers (AKA borrowed neutral). None of which are generally easily visible as DIY dabbling, or would be reported by the customer as something not working. So how would these become of some concern prompting you to suggest any inspection & testing, if the recommended time intervals of BS7671 are not that important? Surely that is one of the key points of an EICR, that installations can and do deteriorate unnoticed by the users.  

Doc H.

 

[carter69]

This conversation reminds me of when we had the kitchen done. I worked with the installer in removing the old kitchen and lifting the old flooring. As we were lifting the old tiled floor, found wires connected with  plastic terminal blocks, bit of insulation tape wrapped around them, these were directly under where the old kitchen sink and pipework was. Before we started we made sure the electrics for the whole floor was off and checked no current was present. Only once got half the floor lifted found out thats how the original installers had connected 2 of the previous electric UF heating.

On another point, when they build the house they buried the wrong width gas pipe from the meter to the boiler (typical on the other side of the house), so means theres a gas pipe running around the outside to connect the two.

With these examples of how the house has been wired/plumbed, I do fear what other hazards maybe hidden within the walls.

FWIW, we have a trusted electrician who we have used before and doesnt take liberties. 

 

[binky]

Its not uncommon to identify rings with broken continuity, or sockets with reversed polarity, or missing earths, or circuits bridging two circuit breakers (AKA borrowed neutral). None of which are generally easily visible as DIY dabbling, or would be reported by the customer as something not working. So how would these become of some concern prompting you to suggest any inspection & testing, if the recommended time intervals of BS7671 are not that important? Surely that is one of the key points of an EICR, that installations can and do deteriorate unnoticed by the users.  

Doc H.

I spend most of my time in domestic property so have a good eye for spotting 'things' , what prompts me to get concerned is clear disaparities in work, eg a 5 year old kitchen but 15 year old board, outside shed with a bit of FTE running along the fence, new sockets behind TV, lots of new decor and light fittings etc etc. More obvious is old fuse-wire boards, no test stickers or dates, lack of earth bond cables running off somewhere or small sizes to name but a few.

 It is rare that a 30-40 year old system hasn't been modified at some point, but I have tested many old systems and found them to be fine, usually better than newer stuff, which may say more about standards of work and training?  You also have to assess the occupant, little old ladies tend not to put much pressure on the system, large families with kids do, and hence age the systems faster and break things.  So, for me it's not about the recommended 10 years (lets be honest that figure will have some bum-covering built into it) , it's more about assessing the whole set of circumstances., and if I'm there to trace a fault the customer tends to be more interested in sorting that out - depending on what I find doing that will also be reflected in any recommendations to do further testing.

 

[Sidney]

At least they used insulation tape, this was one of the horrors when I ripped my kitchen out last year.



And this lot were just covered by a bit of cardboard and plastered over...

 

[NozSpark]

I was tasked to find rectify a fault that was knocking the RCD off whenever the cooker was turned off or got up to temperature..

In the end I found that the fault was actually in one of the lighting circuits

View attachment 7984A15B-D5CE-4681-9BF3-761D5975051A.heic

 

[carter69]

Apolgies for the delay but all seems to have been sorted.

Electrician came round and immediate thought was to have individual RCBOs for each underfloor zone. Also we have 2 consumer units, one for the lights and the other for the ring mains (which is where the UF was).

He moved the UF on to spare slots on the other unit with individal RCBOs and this has resolved the issue. So conclusion is was a build up of earth to neutral leakage that was tripping the RCD.

Regarding the plastic consumer unit, he said yes under the new regulation this needs replacing, which I intend to get done in the New Year once finances allow it. But he did said the current installation is sound.

So finally a happy wife with warm toes!! Thanks for various advice

 

[Murdoch]

Apolgies for the delay but all seems to have been sorted.

Electrician came round and immediate thought was to have individual RCBOs for each underfloor zone. Also we have 2 consumer units, one for the lights and the other for the ring mains (which is where the UF was).

He moved the UF on to spare slots on the other unit with individal RCBOs and this has resolved the issue. So conclusion is was a build up of earth to neutral leakage that was tripping the RCD.

Regarding the plastic consumer unit, he said yes under the new regulation this needs replacing, which I intend to get done in the New Year once finances allow it. But he did said the current installation is sound.

So finally a happy wife with warm toes!! Thanks for various advice

Fwiw there is no requirement to replace plastic fuseboards 

Your spark is wrong on this account

As for moving the circuit to reduce the tripping this suggests there are other issues possibly going on here

 

[Evans Electric]

As Murdo says , don't waste money on changing fuseboard   .    

 

[carter69]

Yes he said I didnt need to change. More if had an officia electrical report done then under the 2017 regulation it would fail. TBF it was some of the previous comments that put the fear into me on the consumer board that made me consider getting it replaced

 

[ProDave]

Yes he said I didnt need to change. More if had an officia electrical report done then under the 2017 regulation it would fail. TBF it was some of the previous comments that put the fear into me on the consumer board that made me consider getting it replaced

No it should not "FAIL" Any electrician failing it is possibly guilty of fraud.  Changes to the regulations are not retrospective.

A plastic CU might get a mention on an EICR but only a code 3 which is not a fail, unless there is something else wrong like big holes in it or otherwise damaged.

 

[binky]

It's still legal to fit plastic fire-retardent CUs provided it's not on a fire escape route, ie not in the understairs cupboard of a wooden set of stairs. The only reason the regs changed was becuase of cheapo plastic units that were not fire retardent at all, but even these can only catch fire if the work within them is lettuced.