Water Ingress To External Standalone Pir Detectors

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

"IP44"

"Object size protected against" >1mm

"Splashing water Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect. Test duration: 5 minutes

Water volume: 10 litres per minute

Pressure: 80–100 kPa"

So to be IP44 it has to have no holes >1mm diameter

And be able to withstand SPLASHING water for 5 minutes.

That does NOT IMHO make it suitable for outside use in constant rain for hours on end.

IMHO outside stuff should be IP65 or greater.

Interesting points Dave...

but not sure I agree with the logic of the test duration relevance....

If following the logic of the must withstand 5 mins splashing argument...

then as IPX5 also only needs to withstand a 3 minute test..

that also would be no good for 24hrs in rain...

The pivotal point is the source of the water, not specifically the test duration to verify compliance....

i.e..

Rain by most general definitions is not ….

i) Water projected by a nozzle (6.3 mm) against enclosure from any direction.. {IPX5}

[test duration at least 3 mins]

nor is it..

ii) Water projected in powerful jets (12.5 mm nozzle) against the enclosure from any direction... {IPX6}

[test duration at least 3 mins]

It is some form of dripping or falling water splashes…

e.g.

IPX1 Dripping water (vertically falling drops) shall have no harmful effect.

[Water equivalent to 1 mm rainfall per minute]

or

IPX2 Vertically dripping water shall have no harmful effect when the enclosure is tilted at an angle up to 15° from its normal position.

[Water equivalent to 3 mm rainfall per minute]

or

IPX3 Water falling as a spray at any angle up to 60° from the vertical shall have no harmful effect.

[Water volume: 0.7 litres per minute]

or

IPX4 Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect.

[Water volume: 10 litres per minute]

10 litres per minute is a reasonable amount of rain to be falling on your enclosure

Again as a general rule the water jets rating are more specifically for environments where walls / fittings are washed down with hoses….

Otherwise, if the IPX5 & 6 are intended to define rain fall..

Then on the table we go straight from rain fall to immersion at a depth of 1m!

IPX4 should be adequate for most rain environments, obviously prevailing winds and the physical mounting direction can have adverse effects…

As we all know that the average roof on most houses manages to keep most rain out with just a few overlapping tiles… 

Then of course if you choose to fire a high pressure hose against any aperture water will get through!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code

Guinness

 

[Apache]

Spec Loc - then why do my series of IP44 rated PIR floodlights end up full of water. I have 2 others (1 at work and 1 at home) that have been going for 5 years and no bother. I'm convinced it must be driving rain that gets in, but it does.

On the top of my shed IP44 not enough!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Spec Loc - then why do my series of IP44 rated PIR floodlights end up full of water. I have 2 others (1 at work and 1 at home) that have been going for 5 years and no bother. I'm convinced it must be driving rain that gets in, but it does.

On the top of my shed IP44 not enough!

Well what is your interpretation of the IP table then?

or consider BS7671 701.512.2  External influences in locations containing a bath or shower..

Installed electrical equipment shall have at least the following degrees of protection

Zone 0 {thats the bathtub or shower tray}  IPX7

Zones 1 or 2  {thats the vertical above the bathtub or shower tray + 60cm either side of it}  IPX4..

Then the comment equipment exposed to water jets e.g. for cleaning purposes shall have a degree of protection of at least IPX5

If an electric shower in a shower enclosure only need be IPX4......

is that more or less wet with street pressure water or is gravity & wind rain drops wetter???

A lot of PIR's do have their circuit board encapsulated so its not even a exposed circuit card. 

Is it rain getting in? or condensation build up?

Warm lamp & air inside an enclosed compartment with cold damp air outside is a possible recipe for condensation..

As has also been commented earlier....

for something to get full of water, as well as an inlet point...

there is obviously no drainage out.

Whats your interpretation then....

ONLY IPX5 or higher outdoors??????

:C

 

[Riggy]

Apache, we have high pressure horizontal rain in Cumbria as well. It doesn't seem to understand IP ratings either. My solution in your situation would be an elv pir with a remote relay. Off the shelf systems are available, used a lot on local primary schools.

 

[ProDave]

I think the issue is although some "outside" lights claim to be IP44, in practice they fill up with water.

So do the manufacturers give them a 3 minute test at the end of which they are dry inside so they say "that's fine"

Or do they actually test them outside in real rain for a year?

I'm sure many do the former, but what's needed for outside electrical stuff is the latter.

I think a different standard needs to be specified, one that says outside in real rain conditions forever. None of this 3 minute test nonsense.

In the mean time, if you encounter an "outside" fitting that clearly is not suitable for outside use, all you can do is never use the same fitting again, and tell as many people as you can, that it's not suitable for it's intended purpose.  Only if people stop buying the rubbish, will the carp manufacturers do anything to improve it.

Electric showers are not really a comparison.  In my house at least, it "rains" a lot less in the shower than it does outside, and people direct the jet of water onto themselves, not the shower box. So all the shower box usually gets is a few stray splashes and really hardly gets wet at all.  Most of these rubbish outside fittings being talked about would work perfectly well forever next to my shower.

 

[Steve3948]

Maybe I've been lucky, but I have never had water get into the PIR's I have fitted, if the job allows it I fit the ABB one as in my previous post but they look huge and not to everyone's liking as they are not very discreet. For competitive installations I fit this cheapo, it's designed in such a way that water may get into the back-plate but will run through getting nowhere near the connections.

I prefer the black as the white seems to go off colour very quickly.

 

[Apache]

Whats your interpretation then....

ONLY IPX5 or higher outdoors??????

:C

I never said that.

If this happened once then I can see it been a 1 off fault, but it's happened many times

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/5883-decent-pir-floodlight/http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/topic/5883-decent-pir-floodlight/

 

[binky]

it has become an increasing problem - no doubt to some cost cutting design work. Stuff from a few years ago was fine, but over the last 2 years I have had increasing problems with failing security fooldlights and PIRs in general. Have just checked my Steinel unit, and even that has a few drops of water behind the lens, which may just be condensation, and not unexpected especially given the weather recently. Will be drilling v small hole in bottom of lens later.

problem isn't so much water getting in, but not being able to escape again - check out the selas on your shower, they only run across the top and down the sides - the bottom is not sealed allowing any water to escape

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

With subjects like this I do sometimes think we can end up looking for the wrong solution to the wrong problem..

i.e.

Are the IP rating tables and description of levels of protection correct or incorrect?

Should IPX4 be suitable for typical outdoor usage or not..?

is 10litres per minute splashing from any direction a reasonable sample of rain fall levels?

Industry standards and numerous manufactures would suggest that IPX4 IS suitable for outdoor usage..

SO...

If an item of equipment claimed to be IPX4 is failing within an unreasonable timescale..

then surely to goodness it is Not fit for purpose or of merchantable quality..

[as per.. sale of goods act / supply of goods and services act..]

so you should be pursuing the failure and any relevant remedial costs with either.. 

the suppliers, manufactures or trading standards.. etc...

Not debating if the IP code table is any good for defining indoor/outdoor protection??

:coat

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Electric showers are not really a comparison.  In my house at least, it "rains" a lot less in the shower than it does outside, and people direct the jet of water onto themselves, not the shower box. So all the shower box usually gets is a few stray splashes and really hardly gets wet at all.  Most of these rubbish outside fittings being talked about would work perfectly well forever next to my shower.

Irrespective of how your shower gets used / splashed...

IPX4 should be able to withstand 10litres per minute..

thats approx the average 2 gallon watering can been poured over it every minute..

and we do have to assume that some relatively competent and knowledgeable persons have assessed average rainfall across the UK to establish these IP table guidlines...

Or are they just numbers made up by a bunch of school kids for a homework project???

p.s.

I know loads of other families where the shower is in use for longer periods...

and gets a fair dosing of splashes...   (our family with 5 children being one such place...)

opcorn

 

[binky]

concurr with the above. Poor design is this issue rather than IP rating.

 

[ProDave]

concurr with the above. Poor design is this issue rather than IP rating.

OR the manufacturer is claiming an IP rating that the product is not actually meeting.

Either way, surely a case for trading standards?

 

[pewter]

Spec Loc - then why do my series of IP44 rated PIR floodlights end up full of water. I have 2 others (1 at work and 1 at home) that have been going for 5 years and no bother. I'm convinced it must be driving rain that gets in, but it does.

On the top of my shed IP44 not enough!

Could they have been fitted incorrectly or not very well.

Perhaps a poor installation by a DIY'er, not a proper apprentice served electrician registered for doing part-p notifiable work.

I always use a bit of silicone when fitting stuff outside even though in does not say to do so in the instructions.

i agree with others about the quality of products not been very good. More reason why we should buy good quality gear not cheapest rubbish for sale on the internet.

I think the IP codes are fantastic.   Its the jokers claiming there stuff is IP rated when it does not last is the problem.

 

[binky]

been fitting PIR floodlights for years, always arrange cable to run water away from entry point and use flex cable to suite round grommet (and black for UV Protection), but have had a few units lately just fill up in the PIR for no obvious reason. I think the weak point is the lens or the elbow joint, but it's hard to prove without spending huge amounts of time examining fitting in situ