What Fault Code for Incorrect Phase sequence?

[Walter Leach]

What EICR Fault code are you guys using for incorrect phase sequence? The incoming supply is correct but L1 and L2 have been swapped on the feed from the supply head to the main distribution board to 2.1.3 and then this error is consistent to the 5 sub boards except one. Various pieces of equipment are running quite happily with the incorrect sequence and others have had the phases corrected back to 1.2.3 at the local isolator. I don't see it as a C1 as nobody is in immediate danger but it seems worth more than a C3 to me.

 

[Sidewinder]

C3 at the most TBH, why more?

 

[Manator]

When you say some equipment is running quite happily are they still phased wrong or have they been corrected at the point of use?

As for the code I suppose you could argue that the supply is totally wrong and a serious accident could happen if a secondary fault was to occur, and also you could argue that anyone not so observant may just do something very dangerous.

I suspect there is not an immediate danger, especially if this has now come to light, but a C2 is the minimum you could give.

A C3 would be satisfactory, which in this case is clearly not.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:46 ----------

OH OH, me a Sidewinder disagree.

 

[Sidewinder]

It looks like handbags at dawn Manator, my place or yours!

I have to be on site by 07:30 latest, & I've had a beer so you'll have to be here by 06:30 or its off!:worship ROTFWL

 

[Steve3948]

I'm with sidewinder on this, C3.

I suppose it should be right at the main distribution and then adjusted locally at the appliance if required.

This could result in a lot of work changing it now, and the risk that something is overlooked, and if rotation is critical could be more of an issue than leaving it as it is, with some costly damage.

Maybe label board with details of phase sequence.

 

[Sidewinder]

I know, its lets gang up on the Mod night! ; )

Only joking boss!

 

[Manator]

I just would not be comfortable giving a C3, however I am willing to concede that whilst a satisfactory report could be issued with a C3 the work and labelling could be done so that no confusion would remain, but it would have to be a good working site that have procedures in place and possibly a work permit regime.

 

[Walter Leach]

Hmmm - glad to see its not a silly question.

The post has pretty much gone as my thought process did...

Got to be a C2 because its wrong and that's not acceptable but then so what nobody is in danger, everything is working.

The risk is that when another change is made a phase sensitive motor maybe installed incorrectly and do harm (but is that my problem the installer should check). I'm leaning to C2 as I cant leave it wrong and say its satisfactory and the idea of posting a label saying beware seems a cop-out. If its a C2 and the owner decides not to correct at least I've done all I can. If I say C3 and a future problem occurs I've got to justify saying it was satisfactory. Does anybody have a guide/authoritative source that gives explicit advise? I've not found any in the ESC guides, guidance notes or online. It seems to be down to an opinion and as its my work its mine that counts in this instance. Many Thanks for the input much appreciated.

 

[Sidewinder]

Manator,

I don't believe phase sequence is that much of an issue.

They are all the same just shifted in time!

IF the equipment you are connecting is rotation sensitive then you are responsible for getting it right at your "machine".

If not is it not a problem.

If you are shutting down a whole board then the phase sequence is irrelevant.

If you are shutting down a circuit, 1ph or 3ph, then again this is OK as the phase sequence is irrelevant.

IMHO "EVEN" in a medical environment it is "NOT" that much of an issue.

At the end of the day, if you have 3 blacks, you can label any one L1 & the others L2 & L3 respectively and get the phase rotation correct, by swapping L1, L2 & L3 until it is correct, at any individual motor/machine etc.

There is no "absolute" reference in time for which phase is L1.

The only way you can tell is by reference to a known source.

KME & I were at a 3ph DNO head today, phase sequence at the output of the head L1, L3, L2, swapped going into the meter to be correct, we hope!

Thing is down here the (now) DNO have got the phase sequence wrong on a few subs that are feeding final distribution circuits!!!

 

[Walter Leach]

you guys are 2 fast at posting for me too keep up.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:19 ----------

to answer manators question there is a mixture of equiment that is incorrectly wired with phase 2.1.3 and others that have been corrected back to 1.2.3 locally.

 

[Manator]

Like Sidewinder says any machine connected if done by a competent person will be connected to a corrected phase sequence anyway.

I think you are right Walter, personal views do come into deciding when and where to upgrade a code, mine are normally based on a site to site risk assessment, some machine shops I have PIR'd would have a higher code simply because I know they do not have the knowledge to make sure everything is sorted properly.

I do however concede that a C3 would be acceptable and noted on the report, if anyone does anything after your report you will not be liable because you have noted the problem on your report.