Why considiring the ROI?

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
121
Reaction score
33
Location
South Wales
In addition, PV help to improve your EPC and potential to make you change band. This too add value, don't you think?
Excellent point. This is exactly what happened with our recent EPC. In fact, we were recommended to have solar water heating to improve it further...We have a solar diverter!!!
I told the administrating quango...No sensible response...No surprise.
 

Bob Smith

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
137
Reaction score
23
Location
Somewhere
Excellent point. This is exactly what happened with our recent EPC. In fact, we were recommended to have solar water heating to improve it further...We have a solar diverter!!!
I told the administrating quango...No sensible response...No surprise.
It is amazing and worrying how some professionals still have not caught up.
It is like the estate agents. There are still, unfortunately, who will either ignore the fact you have PV or see that at something that will put buyer off because of the maintenance, risks blabla and if you ask how much experience they have with such technology. Surprise. none...


Anyway, the important thing about this thread is ROI and at least you and I agree that a complete ROI should include the reduction of your carbon foot print.
Should we start a petitition for the government to allow household to sell their carbon credit like companies do ?
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
Can you think of any reasons why Carbon Footprint is not included in the ROI calculation? So far I have never seen an installer who includes it and put some figure. (yes my app tells me how many trees I have saved but that is for illustration purposes)

Companies trade their carbon credit. Why not us too?
In addition, PV help to improve your EPC and potential to make you change band. This too add value, don't you think?
I was only ever asked about carbon footprints by one customer. It used to be on the quotes, not sure why I stopped putting those figures in, other than to perhaps save time doing quotes ( and nobody asked ).
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
121
Reaction score
33
Location
South Wales
It is amazing and worrying how some professionals still have not caught up.
It is like the estate agents. There are still, unfortunately, who will either ignore the fact you have PV or see that at something that will put buyer off because of the maintenance, risks blabla and if you ask how much experience they have with such technology. Surprise. none...


Anyway, the important thing about this thread is ROI and at least you and I agree that a complete ROI should include the reduction of your carbon foot print.
Should we start a petitition for the government to allow household to sell their carbon credit like companies do ?
As my install is DIY I bet they wouldn't allow me to gain anything from it. My smart meter shows when I'm exporting and presumably is able to tally it. Why can't I be paid despite not having had an MSC installation? It would increase the ROI and encourage others to do the same.
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
As my install is DIY I bet they wouldn't allow me to gain anything from it. My smart meter shows when I'm exporting and presumably is able to tally it. Why can't I be paid despite not having had an MSC installation? It would increase the ROI and encourage others to do the same.
Because the MCS quango has made a nuisance for everyone to ' maintain standards '.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
121
Reaction score
33
Location
South Wales
Perhaps there should be a flow chart available for the safe installation of solar. It should include information such as the need for non-sharing of RCDs and what circuits are notifiable etc.

The DNO could stipulate that the system cannot become live until it has been signed off by an electrician. MCS installers should be able to inspect and sign off other people's work. Anything other than this creates a monopoly which of course isn't in the best interests of the consumer and the environment.
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
6,830
Reaction score
592
Location
Woking
Perhaps there should be a flow chart available for the safe installation of solar. It should include information such as the need for non-sharing of RCDs and what circuits are notifiable etc.

The DNO could stipulate that the system cannot become live until it has been signed off by an electrician. MCS installers should be able to inspect and sign off other people's work. Anything other than this creates a monopoly which of course isn't in the best interests of the consumer and the environment.

that’s not going to happen. There is so much DIY done including solar, the manufacturers would block it. Their profits go before safety
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
121
Reaction score
33
Location
South Wales
that’s not going to happen. There is so much DIY done including solar, the manufacturers would block it. Their profits go before safety
You're probably right. It always annoys me when the authorities are weak. If something makes sense for the majority it should just happen regardless of the objections from the few.
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
What sort of damage could you be accused of doing? I cant honestly think of much that could go wrong and even then, the system should have adequate protection anyway.
trouble with DIYers is that they have strange ideas like 2.5mm FTE can carry 32Amps, and they don't appreciaye loft insualtion can derate cables. There is quite a serious fire potential from badly installed Solar and battery systems, so whilst it's not actually hard to install, getting correct information from t'internet can be hard.
 

Bob Smith

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 13, 2022
Messages
137
Reaction score
23
Location
Somewhere
I must agree with you Binky. Not related to solar but when we renovated our conversatory, we found out that the previous owner had lighting cable used for the sockets. I do not know who installed it (A friend, him or a pro, He was IT guy and the house had LAN cable everywhere,). Bottom line wrong cable and there is always more to it than what first meets the eyes. Everything can be learnt the question is, when do you know you know enough?
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
I must agree with you Binky. Not related to solar but when we renovated our conversatory, we found out that the previous owner had lighting cable used for the sockets. I do not know who installed it (A friend, him or a pro, He was IT guy and the house had LAN cable everywhere,). Bottom line wrong cable and there is always more to it than what first meets the eyes. Everything can be learnt the question is, when do you know you know enough?
before retraining as an electrican I had previously worked as a technician with an electro-mechanical background. It was only after retraining I appreciated things like rubber flex is not suitable as garage feed even if protected by a RCD - a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing :D.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2022
Messages
121
Reaction score
33
Location
South Wales
What sort of damage could you be accused of doing? I cant honestly think of much that could go wrong and even then, the system should have adequate protection anyway.
The DNO said there could be problems with overvoltages causing problems for our neighbours if we exported over the limit they had modelled for our situation. Don't know how that would manifest itself or whether the rep was just trying to make sure we didn't go over the limit.:unsure:
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
168
Reaction score
63
Location
Gainsborough
trouble with DIYers is that they have strange ideas like 2.5mm FTE can carry 32Amps, and they don't appreciaye loft insualtion can derate cables. There is quite a serious fire potential from badly installed Solar and battery systems, so whilst it's not actually hard to install, getting correct information from t'internet can be hard.
I was thinking more in terms of feeding back into the grid i.e. export.

Me personally, I dont want to export to the grid, if I do, I've failed LOL. Much more cost effective to use it all yourself.
 

Gian

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2021
Messages
141
Reaction score
28
I must agree with you Binky. Not related to solar but when we renovated our conversatory, we found out that the previous owner had lighting cable used for the sockets. I do not know who installed it (A friend, him or a pro, He was IT guy and the house had LAN cable everywhere,). Bottom line wrong cable and there is always more to it than what first meets the eyes. Everything can be learnt the question is, when do you know you know enough?
This pops up and I think your correct a lot of diyers do not know or have appreciation for a lot of things like volt drop , length of cable runs type of wires used in differant applications. But it's not all diyers . I had a solar company install one of my systems and it was not done correct. But I was issued a lovely certificate to say it was safe. But anyway the list goes on. I my self just had my wrists slapped for taking my cover off my boiler. I had an electrical fault infact a thyristor had failed and all I wanted was the manufacture's readings so I could check it's values, but when I rang the boiler manufacture's they grilled me for just removing the cover. I did not touch anything gas just the electronics. Am I competent or not . Gas don't want anyone touching boilers unless they are trained , electrics in domestic the same. But what about working on your cars which everyone does. Should we now go down the route of not selling parts to the general public. A mechanic has spent years like gas and electricians getting qualified. I personally have seen some bad electrics not all done by a home owner a lot has been the electrician. I normally find a diyer who wants to say install a solar system and battery's will read up on it and normally are aware of issues. If we want to stop all these dangers then the goverment should put in law that only qualified electricians work on electrics, only qualified gas engineers work on gas and the same with mechanics and make it impossible to purchase parts or items for that trade. Outlaw it that will stop it. How many meter people are trained electricians, there not, but they have had training in changing a meter and handling cut out fuses,yet an electrician is not allowed to touch it. I have over the years witnessed 3 meter people not one followed the correct procedure to confirm dead. They did not even torque up the screws.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
168
Reaction score
63
Location
Gainsborough
This pops up and I think your correct a lot of diyers do not know or have appreciation for a lot of things like volt drop , length of cable runs type of wires used in differant applications. But it's not all diyers . I had a solar company install one of my systems and it was not done correct. But I was issued a lovely certificate to say it was safe. But anyway the list goes on. I my self just had my wrists slapped for taking my cover off my boiler. I had an electrical fault infact a thyristor had failed and all I wanted was the manufacture's readings so I could check it's values, but when I rang the boiler manufacture's they grilled me for just removing the cover. I did not touch anything gas just the electronics. Am I competent or not . Gas don't want anyone touching boilers unless they are trained , electrics in domestic the same. But what about working on your cars which everyone does. Should we now go down the route of not selling parts to the general public. A mechanic has spent years like gas and electricians getting qualified. I personally have seen some bad electrics not all done by a home owner a lot has been the electrician. I normally find a diyer who wants to say install a solar system and battery's will read up on it and normally are aware of issues. If we want to stop all these dangers then the goverment should put in law that only qualified electricians work on electrics, only qualified gas engineers work on gas and the same with mechanics and make it impossible to purchase parts or items for that trade. Outlaw it that will stop it. How many meter people are trained electricians, there not, but they have had training in changing a meter and handling cut out fuses,yet an electrician is not allowed to touch it. I have over the years witnessed 3 meter people not one followed the correct procedure to confirm dead. They did not even torque up the screws.
It does seem madness at times what you are and are not allowed to do. I can see some of the arguments but it sure isnt black and white in my view.
Years ago me and a friend had a light aircraft, an G-BCHX SZD Sperling. It was in a suitable weight category and use to be operated under PFA rules, this meant we could do our own maintenance. The engine had seen better days and was burring some oil, my mate the co-owner had an engine reconditioning business so we removed the engine, he re-bored and rebuilt as needed, we refitted it and did all of the necessary ground runs. We booked an appointment with an inspector and he came to witness tests etc. All went well until he looked at the crankcase and there was the Rolls Royce plate with the engine details rivetted on. He said he couldn't sign off the engine because it was a plated engine and therefore couldn't be worked on by non licenced engineers. We had a coffee in the clubhouse and a chat, I asked if we made an identical looking engine from our own castings etc, would that be ok? Absolutely was his reply.
I removed the rivets, took off the engine plate, had a new brass plate made with the engine type being 'Bureaucrat FO2U'. We called the inspector back, told him we'd copied the Rolls Royce engine, he inspected it and signed it off. In maintenance log it said 'New Engine Fitted - Bureaucrat FO2U'.
Its this sort of situation that's ridiculous, we had the skillsets and the equipment to do a good job, in reality probably better than a licenced engineer.
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
I was thinking more in terms of feeding back into the grid i.e. export.

Me personally, I dont want to export to the grid, if I do, I've failed LOL. Much more cost effective to use it all yourself.
the grid siutation is an indicator of the lack of investment in it over decades, in Germany 5kW is the norm, no doubt because they have invested more in basic infrastruture.
 

binky

eco warrior......™
Supporting Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
11,925
Reaction score
608
Location
Sunny Plymouth
This pops up and I think your correct a lot of diyers do not know or have appreciation for a lot of things like volt drop , length of cable runs type of wires used in differant applications. But it's not all diyers . I had a solar company install one of my systems and it was not done correct. But I was issued a lovely certificate to say it was safe. But anyway the list goes on. I my self just had my wrists slapped for taking my cover off my boiler. I had an electrical fault infact a thyristor had failed and all I wanted was the manufacture's readings so I could check it's values, but when I rang the boiler manufacture's they grilled me for just removing the cover. I did not touch anything gas just the electronics. Am I competent or not . Gas don't want anyone touching boilers unless they are trained , electrics in domestic the same. But what about working on your cars which everyone does. Should we now go down the route of not selling parts to the general public. A mechanic has spent years like gas and electricians getting qualified. I personally have seen some bad electrics not all done by a home owner a lot has been the electrician. I normally find a diyer who wants to say install a solar system and battery's will read up on it and normally are aware of issues. If we want to stop all these dangers then the goverment should put in law that only qualified electricians work on electrics, only qualified gas engineers work on gas and the same with mechanics and make it impossible to purchase parts or items for that trade. Outlaw it that will stop it. How many meter people are trained electricians, there not, but they have had training in changing a meter and handling cut out fuses,yet an electrician is not allowed to touch it. I have over the years witnessed 3 meter people not one followed the correct procedure to confirm dead. They did not even torque up the screws.
there's bad tradespeople in all walks of life, and this in turn leads to people wanting to do works themselves. Personally, I think no one should be able to trade as anything unless they can demonstrate proper training. If you can't have confidence in employing tradespeople, then why wouldn't you DiY. As it currently stands a hairdresser can buy a van and write sparky on the side and sell his services as an electrician. Likewise, I could decide to be a hairdresser tomorrow - that would definetly end badly :ROFLMAO:
 
Top