Yes that is what was being discussed - unless you know something I don't, BS7671 is not published in a ring binder format, although it might be useful if it were then we wouldn't be expected to find nearly 100 quid for a new book every couple of years, just the sections which are changed.
17th ....18th edition Regs ?
- Thread starter Evans Electric
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Perhaps its my phraseology thats wrong then. Instead of part time apprentice I should say , young lad who would love to be an electrician but along with all the others in his term at our local college , he can't get a permanent job with anyone because no one is employing apprentices so he's put himself through the college but now he's 18 he has to pay for future courses but he has little money although he does a small amount of work with his dad who is a builder and a small amount with me to get some practical experience but I'm semi retired so only work a couple of days a week . Of the letters & CVs he sends out 99.99999% do not respond .
The big deal now is for him to do this NVQ3 thing for which , it would appear, he needs to be employed.
10 years ago there were three of us and I would have employed him ,no problem.
It strikes me that these days , apprenticships are designed for colleges to make money , how many courses do one need to get through these days , all @ around £400 a go .
Years ago the basic C&Gs (A) at least got you a skilled card.
He got a start with a local sparks , new house bashing, turned out he just wanted cheap labour , no chance of college, working until 10pm each day.
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phil d
Well-known member
This lads situation reminded me of the last young lad I trained up, he was in a similar position, anyway cutting a very long story short, he was unable to afford to go back when he had to start paying as he was only doing odds and ends with me as I was ill at the time and not doing a great deal.Anyway he'd passed a particular set of exams and we got a good bit of work in, he told them he wasn't coming to college any more as it was approaching the end of that term and since he couldn't afford to go back next year he might as well be with me earning some money.
The next thing was this woman from college rang me to check his story! I explained our situation and later on she rang him and said he had to attend college at 9 the next morning, he went and when he came back he was all smiles, apparently there was a bursary or charity fund or something to help trainees. Because he was getting high marks in his studies and because although he wasn't in a full time job, he was doing his best with me, they got funding from this source.
He went back after the summer and was able to find a placement with a fairly large firm, they'd actually come to college looking for some first year apprentices, but having spoken to him and his tutors they took him. He went on to pass his finals and now has a good job, the firm kept him on, he's got a new car and has put a deposit on a new house, the only downside is he still owes me a bottle of Jack Daniels. that was the deal, I'd teach him what I knew and when he passed he'd buy me the bottle, still never mind the lads done allright.
Maybe he should ask if something like this is available at his college.
The next thing was this woman from college rang me to check his story! I explained our situation and later on she rang him and said he had to attend college at 9 the next morning, he went and when he came back he was all smiles, apparently there was a bursary or charity fund or something to help trainees. Because he was getting high marks in his studies and because although he wasn't in a full time job, he was doing his best with me, they got funding from this source.
He went back after the summer and was able to find a placement with a fairly large firm, they'd actually come to college looking for some first year apprentices, but having spoken to him and his tutors they took him. He went on to pass his finals and now has a good job, the firm kept him on, he's got a new car and has put a deposit on a new house, the only downside is he still owes me a bottle of Jack Daniels. that was the deal, I'd teach him what I knew and when he passed he'd buy me the bottle, still never mind the lads done allright.
Maybe he should ask if something like this is available at his college.
I couldn't get an apprenticeship either, so had to pay my own way through college, working as an agency mate to gain experience and support myself. The 3rd year would have cost me over a grand but fortunately I was unemployed at the start of the year so got it for about £40, and this was over 10 years ago. The other two years were a bit less but with the same concession available. I did find I got a better response from potential employers though, or at least a response probably in the majority of cases even if it was a rejection - maybe it's worth having a look at the letter this lad is sending out and see if there are any glaring errors or omissions which are causing him not to get a response at all.
Is there nothing the college can or will do to help, and aren't JTL supposed to help with apprenticeships?
From the other perspective we have 3 apprentices - 2 are supposed to be electrical and one mechanical, although they're all doing the same "engineering" course at college.
One of them seemed really promising - I spent a couple of months showing him how to put up tray, terminate cables, work safely etc. I got him to make up a board to practice different ways of wiring lighting. He did the first one really well, really took his time over it and did a good job. The second one he rushed, energised it without testing it, then when it didn't work properly he announced that he'd taken it as far as he thought he could and went to hang out with the other 2 apprentices. The other electrical apprentice just stands there looking in the general direction of what you're doing (I'm not convinced he's 'watching' or learning anything), then disappears for ages. You try to show him something and he says "yeah I did all that ages ago", then you ask him a basic question and he doesn't know or even try to think of the answer.
Now the two electrical apprentices follow the mechanical one around like a human centipede. Whenever anyone asks them to do anything they sound off against each other and give a load of lip, and if they ask for help with anything they don't listen and mess it up. They have been given a rare, highly sought after opportunity to learn a trade which will set them up for life and they just seem to be throwing it away. It makes me feel a bit sick and some days I just can't look at them. Most of the mechanical guys won't work with them either. They complain that they're being used as 'cheap labour' because now they're given simple maintenance jobs to do since they've demonstrated that they just don't want to be there to learn.
I'd like to be able to say I won't let this put me off employing an apprentice in the future, although I certainly wouldn't want more than one of them.
I know a load of other self employed sparks who use my wholesalers ...over the last say, four to five years they've all taken lads on and have all had to get shut of them as , basically , useless, bolshie, lazy, uninterested, found the work too hard and could not be seperated from their cell phones.
The few remaining are the father / son outfits.
phil d
Well-known member
My last lad, the one I mentioned earlier was really keen, nothing was too much trouble for him, in fact getting him to go home was usually the problem, he'd have stayed on a job all night if I'd have let him. Then again I suppose it's all down to how badly you want something, I often wonder if some of the young ones think that they're going to be top man after a couple of weeks,
One of my mates has a stepson who's a nightmare, no skills and no interest in learning so he ended up working in a warehouse, the firm had a good record of promoting staff, for example, start as an order picker, then become a forklift driver, then a team leader, section supervisor, warehouse manager, and so on and so on.
Anyway he's been there about 3 weeks and he comes home and announces he's packed it in, mate asked him what the problem was, and his answer was amazing, "when I started they said there was promotions, I've been there 3 weeks and I'm still an order picker, should be team leader by now at least".
Some of these young ones want to run before they can walk, which is why I firmly believe that if you get a decent lad, one who wants to work and learn, you should repay his enthusiasm by teaching him, not having him just brushing up or making the tea, good willing lads,are hard to find these days.
I think that is very true Phil, I think the world of work is a great shock to the system for some of them who seem to grow up in their bedrooms gawping at TV & computer screens .
Looking back , as for myself , I had two jobs from age 13 to 15 when I left school, Morning & evening paper round @ 13 shillings a week and Saturday job washing & valeting cars on a sales lot. Can't remember what they paid now but did once valet an Austin Nash Metropolitan , pink , previous owner Petula Clarke.
Yes I certainly moved in the elite show biz circles back then. :innocent
Looking back , as for myself , I had two jobs from age 13 to 15 when I left school, Morning & evening paper round @ 13 shillings a week and Saturday job washing & valeting cars on a sales lot. Can't remember what they paid now but did once valet an Austin Nash Metropolitan , pink , previous owner Petula Clarke.
Yes I certainly moved in the elite show biz circles back then. :innocent
I blame the parents and teachers for encouraging them too much. Seriously. They spend their whole lives being told they can do anything, they are clever enough to fast track to the top, to set their sights high and not settle for a lowly job where they have to sweep up or (perish the thought) clean toilets.
The 'real world' of work then comes as a huge shock to them.
I'm not saying kids shouldn't have aspirations, but they need to be realistic.
The 'real world' of work then comes as a huge shock to them.
I'm not saying kids shouldn't have aspirations, but they need to be realistic.
It all starts going wrong when kids go to school and schools don't allow competitive sports days.......... they don't get a chance to understand that failing is a possibility.
phil d
Well-known member
You're not wrong there, it all seems to be about being nice and not hurting anyone's feelings these days, they are brought up to believe failure will never happen. Same thing with Christmas, nowadays whatever a kid asks for they get, in our day you were lucky if you got anything you asked for, and if it was expensive you had no chance! I remember one guy who's son wanted an Action Man, remember them? There was the soldier, the sailor, the paratrooper, there were lots of different ones, well this kid opens his presents to find one is an empty box, "dad, what's this. it's empty" he asked, the bloke replied, "that son, is an Action Man deserter".
As he said it taught the kid to deal with disappointments! I remember my old fella telling me, "there's no second place son, only first loser", these days it's all this carp about you not winning but being as good as the winner. Well I'm sorry but that isn't true, while everyone may be good at something, if say you are no good at running then you ain't going to be any good as an Olympic sprinter, so deal with it, you may be good at maths, but that won't win you a gold in the 100 mtr sprint will it?
When I was a lad it was a harder world than today, "please sir, when I leave school I want to be an artist" , teacher would be brutally honest, "an artist lad, you can't even draw a straight line" the kid would look a bit fed up then, "tell you what son, you're quite good at woodwork, ever thought of being a joiner?"
Nowadays that same kid would run home and tell his parents that the nasty teacher has said he can't be an artist,the teacher would be disciplined and the kid would probably receive several grand compensation! That's what's wrong today, nobody tells it like it is anymore, there's kids leaving school who've spent so long being told they can do anything, and when they realise they can't it's a big shock to them.
^^ hit, nail and head spring to mind....
Unless the UK gets kids to be more self motivated, I can things getting worse for some.....
Unless the UK gets kids to be more self motivated, I can things getting worse for some.....
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