3+E colours information

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kme

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Didn`t want to continue hijacking topic, so thought I`d move this here.

with regard to the discussion (argument if your name is Steptoe:D) r.e. correct usage of colours in 3+E.

I was reading the "Practical Electrician" mag, that the wholesalers tend to give away. In the May issue, there is a couple of pages on smoke alarms and BS5839.

At one point, the "professional" who is answering the questions is asked which colours should be used for wiring interconnected smokies.

The answer:

Brown: Perm. Live

Black (sleeved blue): Neutral.

Grey: Interconnect.

So is Mr. Steptoe suggesting that this BS5839 "expert" is wrong; and therefore the whole readership of a nationwide electrical magazine, OR

Are we saying that "If they`re smoke alarms, we do it this way; otherwise we do the exact opposite" OR

Are we saying that different standards apply to the cable when used for fire detection, OR

Are we saying that there doesn`t appear to be a standardised format for this; and, until there is, we`d all better be very careful that we`ve correctly identified the conductors.

?

Discussion welcomed..........................................

 

steptoe

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arguement,

arguement,

ARGUEMENT,

I havent even started yet.

:^O :^O:^O

IMHO,

and it seems to be a general concensous outside the UK(England/Wales to be specific),

the colours in a 3core cable are as follows,

L1 = red = brown

L2 = yellow = black

L3 = blue = grey

red = perm Live

yellow = Sleeved Earth(1ph SWA) or switch in domestic(ie, interconnect in your example)

blue = sleeved Neutral

does everyone agree so far.?

good, lets continue,

L1 = perm Live = Brown

L2 = Earth, or sw Live

L3 = Neutral

L1 Brown

L2 Black

L3 Grey

lets not confuse this very simple subject guys(and gurl) by trying to add our own little unique twist on each install we do.

I really dont know where any other logical debate as to any other colour combination can come from.

apart from sheer stoopidity and the inability to count to 3. ;)

 

Mr Sworld

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With 3-phase now that black is blue and blue is black we will either sleeve all new colour wiring with the old colour at the mixed termination.

Or, and this is my favourite, make both the old and new cables with L1, L2, L3, and N. Far better and no confusion.

However I would sleeve old black cable with blue because that's what householders associate with neutral. They have been used to blue for flex and black for fixed wiring for a few years now.

The confusion about black and blue swapping use on 3 phase won't concern them.

 

kme

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Steptoe:

I know what you`re saying here. Looked at from that

pov, it DOES make perfect sense!

However, and herein lies the big issue (no! go get a job:)), which is that some people; including some of the "official" types, who make the rules we`re supposed to follow, have differing points of view (go away Esther!!!)

I also appreciate & accept the pov I submitted on the other topic; i.e. black is GENERALLY a colour associated with neutral; therefore it makes sense to continue that (sleeved the appropriate "robin`s egg" shade of blue, naturally!). Furthermore, the powers that be are informing all & sundry who will listen, to use black sleeved blue as neutral on smokie interconnects. I didn`t write the article mate - I`m simply reporting on its existence.

The main point to make here is that ther ISN`t, as much as it pains us, a standardised "standard" as yet.

 

steptoe

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With 3-phase now that black is blue and blue is black we will either sleeve all new colour wiring with the old colour at the mixed termination.Or, and this is my favourite, make both the old and new cables with L1, L2, L3, and N. Far better and no confusion.

However I would sleeve old black cable with blue because that's what householders associate with neutral. They have been used to blue for flex and black for fixed wiring for a few years now.

The confusion about black and blue swapping use on 3 phase won't concern them.
its more about what colours do you use for single phase tho Mr S, if you are installing a 3c +E, or a SWA submain.

 

steptoe

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Steptoe:I know what you`re saying here. Looked at from that

pov, it DOES make perfect sense!

However, and herein lies the big issue (no! go get a job:)), which is that some people; including some of the "official" types, who make the rules we`re supposed to follow, have differing points of view (go away Esther!!!)

I also appreciate & accept the pov I submitted on the other topic; i.e. black is GENERALLY a colour associated with neutral; therefore it makes sense to continue that (sleeved the appropriate "robin`s egg" shade of blue, naturally!). Furthermore, the powers that be are informing all & sundry who will listen, to use black sleeved blue as neutral on smokie interconnects. I didn`t write the article mate - I`m simply reporting on its existence.

The main point to make here is that ther ISN`t, as much as it pains us, a standardised "standard" as yet.
so,

in all seriousness,

they want us to not only mix two different colours on an addition , but to also mix the colours we use for each purpose.

go to a 10 year old property (TT earth) to wire in 3new smokes and provide a submain to the garage complete with earth,(dual rods interconnected).

both circuits logically in 3ph cable sleeved to suit a single ph domestic installation.!

 

kme

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so,in all seriousness,

they want us to not only mix two different colours on an addition , but to also mix the colours we use for each purpose.

go to a 10 year old property (TT earth) to wire in 3new smokes and provide a submain to the garage complete with earth,(dual rods interconnected).

both circuits logically in 3ph cable sleeved to suit a single ph domestic installation.!
Stupidly, it would appear so, mate. I don`t like the "confusion" anymore than you do; but this is not a problem of our own making!

Which is why I posted the other day, that I do, and will continue to, use the black core, sleeved blue, as a neutral. I will NOT use the colours one way for one circuit; and another way for a different circuit.

Slippery slope, which lead to trouble, that is ((Hello, yoda!)) :^O :^O:^O

 

steptoe

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Stupidly, it would appear so, mate. I don`t like the "confusion" anymore than you do; but this is not a problem of our own making!Which is why I posted the other day, that I do, and will continue to, use the black core, sleeved blue, as a neutral. I will NOT use the colours one way for one circuit; and another way for a different circuit.

Slippery slope, which lead to trouble, that is ((Hello, yoda!)) :^O :^O:^O
I dont mean to be pedantic,

BUT, (as you know me) I will be.....

you are in effect sleeving an L2 as an L3 are you not?

would you still do that with a SWA.?

 

SPECIAL LOCATION

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good evening peoples! :D

haven't had too much time for lounging around here the past few days...

just a few flying visits.. :(

Anyway..

Didn`t want to continue hijacking topic, so thought I`d move this here.
I was thinking the exact same thing there KME....

this topic needs a thread of its own!! (possibly a good initiative scoob due there m8 ??)

At one point' date=' the "professional" who is answering the questions is asked which colours should be used for wiring interconnected smokies.The answer:

Brown: Perm. Live

Black (sleeved blue): Neutral.

Grey: Interconnect.

[/quote']

I must confess..

the above method is the way I have done 3 core smoke interconnections.

and 3core timer bathroom fan wires before now! :| ?:|

However....after careful reading of the posts..

and other reference material..

I am inclining toward Steptoes POV! :eek: :) :)

So is Mr. Steptoe suggesting that this BS5839 "expert" is wrong; and therefore the whole readership of a nationwide electrical magazine' date=' OR

{a}

Are we saying that "If they`re smoke alarms, we do it this way; otherwise we do the exact opposite" OR

{b}

Are we saying that different standards apply to the cable when used for fire detection, OR

{c}

Are we saying that there doesn`t appear to be a standardised format for this; and, until there is, we`d all better be very careful that we`ve correctly identified the conductors.[/quote']

I think the statement {a,b & c} above...

make a very good argument to ensure a best practice of using one standard method for all installations,

Single phase / Three phase / Smokes whatever!! :| ?:|

The other reasons for my choice are the following extracts from one of the many NICEIC good guidance practice booklets...

Extractor fan problem

Although this problem actually relates to using a CPC as a switched live...

Look at the close up of the recommended solution.

Black sleeved brown.

Grey sleeved blue! (Mr steptoe.. 1 scoob!)

Consider another..

Identification of conductors in SWA

Look again at the close up...?

Black sleeved yellow/green.

Grey sleeved blue! (Mr steptoe.. another scoob!)

I think I shall be following the Steptoe line of thought from now on! :D ;)

But as KME says... whatever you are doing...

MAKE SURE CABLES CONDUCTORS ARE IDENTIFIED WITH APPROPRIATE SLEEVE!!! X( ;)

---------------------------------------------------------------

P.S.

I think one of the great things about this forum & the various threads..

It gets you thinking!

Stop!... why do I do something a particular way??

Should I reconsider any of my practices...?

How do I justify my installations methods?

Which I thinks keeps you in a good frame of mind & thought..

especially if you have Part P, scheme assessments where you may get asked similar type questions..

Why do you something one way... and not another??

It all helps to keep you on your toes! :D
 

kme

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Evenin` Mr. Location, sir.

You`re a bit "free & easy" with scoobs tonight, aren`t you.?????

(mind, you have got more of them than anyone else!!!!)

Yes; I agree with everything you`ve said in your post; as I agreed with Steptoe. I`ve also done timer fans and smokies this way.

BUT!!!!!!!

The article to which I`ve referred has said that the grey should be interconnect, the black(sleeved blue) neutral; and brown=live.

Now, I don`t know about the rest of you; but I cannot & will not use two different methods of colour coding the same wires. The fact that the grey is an interconnect is besides the point. If the black should be sleeved blue on smokies, according to the powers that be at 5839; fair enough. BUT...I can`t believe anyone is suggesting that elsewhere, in the same single phase installation, we`d call it live.

On the one hand, as I said much, MUCH earlier:"if its sleeved, who gives a flying f***?"

On the other, we ought to have a standard way of coding these colours.

p.s. Steppie: Yes, I probably would (and, in fact have) done the same with swa. Its sleeved! I did, however, note on the cert. that I`d done this. I think I`m going to add that to my "standard blurb" that goes on all my certs.

 

wally

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Havent had chance to really read the posts but if its smoke alarms using 3c+e

brown=live

grey= neutral (sleaved blue)

black= leave black (do not sleave,interlink)

Someone might have said this, dont know but off to have a bath

 

kme

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Havent had chance to really read the posts but if its smoke alarms using 3c+ebrown=live

grey= neutral (sleaved blue)

black= leave black (do not sleave,interlink)

Someone might have said this, dont know but off to have a bath
Not according to the powers that be. See first post on this thread!

 

wally

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from memory if single phase, the use of colours is dependant on what it is being used for. If 2way strappers, all cores are sleaved brown. If used as swa, grey becomes blue & black becomes earth & smoke alarms as colours mentioned as above. This is the recommendations for NICEIC contractors as given by them, got the info somewhere but no time to look at moment. Don't think it mentions it in the 7671 though so I assume it is not gospel but it would be good if all installs were identified in the same way.

 
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