7 DAY RIGHT TO CANCEL LAW

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

WTF is this all about I thought these things are brought in for cold callers surely if somebody rings you to do a job you agree a price what need is there for a right to cancel as said I am really get fed up with all this paperwork brought in by a government creating jobs for the sake of creating jobs.

:worship

Batty presses the COMMON SENSE button :Applaud :Applaud:Applaud

If you spend a few minutes surfing and researching this "Right to cancel" topic

I think you will find it IS primarily as batty says..

Namely it was introduced to legislate against cold-callers, doorstep sales persons,

AND businesses who telephone cold call then get you to INVITE a sales rep to the home.

This is NOT the scenario where a customer request various traders to come and tender a quote for some work to be done.

IMHO where a trader is quoting for some prospective work contract,

No formal payment is made at contract agreement time,

No direct debit agreement is made at contract time.

The customer makes NO financial outlay for either the goods or services

AND has provided no bank details allowing any monies to be taken prior to work commencing.

In a nutshell the customer has made NO loss or any commitment to a LOSS..

Now if you have made NO LOSS...

AND you are not committed to a future loss...

you have got NOTHING to reclaim back!!!!!!!!!!!

And as these legal rights also talk about the sellers responsibility to REIMBURSE the customer...

WTF are you going to re-imburse... 1 x Box of fresh air & invisible ink!??? ?:|

Where there is NO financial loss to either party..

Who is going to instigate legal proceedings to recover NOTHING!???headbangheadbang

Whereas a doorstop seller may have taken monies or a commitment to payment for goods or services which the customer now decides they no longer wish to have...

So they can RECLAIM any LOSS or cancel a payment agreement, against the doorstep seller within the 7 day period!

http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dtl/index.cfm?event=base:article&node=A76076BD76927

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/The%20Right%20To%20Cancel.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/9954-door-step-selling.htm

etc..

etc..

etc..

 

[sparkytim]

Yes of course this was not aimed at OUR normal working practice, and most often I work on verbal only contracts, what appears to be a sledge hammer to crack a nut approach however seems to INCLUDE our activity.

You will find i think that although it was cold calling that is aimed at an extension was made to include any provider that is INVITED to the home or work place.

My concern is that a dishonest customer may have knowledge of this and use it to our disadvantage, i.e. instruct to go ahead with work and then cancel within 7 days and have no obligation to pay for work already completed.

Also we may be breaking the law if we do not supply the required notice.

I will be making enquiry with Trading Standards to clarify things.

Will keep you posted.

 

[baldelectrician]

I took advice from trading standards and was told that although in Scots Law a verbal contract is legally binding european law overrides this

The problem lies when any invoice becomes unenforcable.

As my jobs are usually <

 

[professional]

The 7 day cooling off period is only a requirement where the contract is signed on the customer's premises IN THE PRESENCE OF SAID CONTRACTOR OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVE.

If you supply a written quote i.e. hand it to the customer and leave the premises whilst they make their mind up and sign, the cooling off period does NOT apply.

So make sure that quotes are POSTED where possible - if not, ring them from around the corner to check if they have accepted and signed the quote.

Trading Standards are well aware of the misconceptions surrounding this ill-conceived legislation - but the confusion suits their purposes. There have been cases where a perfectly good job has been completed yet, because the customer chose the alter the job just before completion(i.e. when it was impossible to issue the right to cancellation paperwork for the alteration), TS advised the customer to pay for NONE of the work, even though the original contract was effectively water-tight.

Many customers are aware of this legislation and set out NOT to pay from day one - and the ********* at TS help them do it.

Beware! - avoid the need to issue the cancellation rights in the first place. LEGIT CUSTOMERS DISTRUST IT!

 

[Andy™]

The 7 day cooling off period is only a requirement where the contract is signed on the customer's premises IN THE PRESENCE OF SAID CONTRACTOR OR THEIR REPRESENTATIVE.If you supply a written quote i.e. hand it to the customer and leave the premises whilst they make their mind up and sign, the cooling off period does NOT apply.

So make sure that quotes are POSTED where possible - if not, ring them from around the corner to check if they have accepted and signed the quote.

i did query this with trading standards a while back, but i didnt get far (see post 9)

 

[professional]

Trading Standards know perfectly well where the Law stands on this issue - but they are loathe to admit it, fearing widespread disobedience will highlight what a total mess has been made of a relatively simple issue.

This legislation was conceived as a response to the pressure selling techniques used by the usual suspects. Unfortunately, the inexperienced morons within the government machine had their say and the resulting mess will now be left for far more intelligent people to clear up - as long as said people are allowed to have a say of course. If not, the Schemes will use their unique blend of incompetence, self-interest and lack of originality to help the situation - God help us all, is all that I can say!

 

[sparkytim]

OK Sorry to anoy you all with more on this BUT..........

Spoke to my local Trading Standards to day and YES THIS ALL DOES INCLUDE our normal working practice..

If you give someone a quote/estimate to carry out work in their Home then YOU MUST issue a Notice of their right to cancel within 7 days, or get them to sign a waiver if they wan't you to start before the 7 days are up.

Even IF you go and look at the job, leave and phone them with a quote it then comes into the Distance selling regulations with similar requirements.

For emergency call outs then they must sign a waiver of their right to cancel OR they could lawfully refuse to pay for the work.

Cases have been reported of "savy" customers using this to avoid payment.

Totally over the top I know but i am assured it IS a legal requirement.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

OK Sorry to anoy you all with more on this BUT..........Spoke to my local Trading Standards to day and YES THIS ALL DOES INCLUDE our normal working practice..

If you give someone a quote/estimate to carry out work in their Home then YOU MUST issue a Notice of their right to cancel within 7 days, or get them to sign a waiver if they wan't you to start before the 7 days are up.

Even IF you go and look at the job, leave and phone them with a quote it then comes into the Distance selling regulations with similar requirements.

For emergency call outs then they must sign a waiver of their right to cancel OR they could lawfully refuse to pay for the work.

Cases have been reported of "savy" customers using this to avoid payment.

Totally over the top I know but i am assured it IS a legal requirement.

Much as I would like to believe what you are saying..

second hand word of mouth counts for very little in a court of law..

Does you telephone contact have written documents they can post to you..

Or links on the Internet to for you..

As can be seen earlier in this thread

your wirral trading standards web-page implies it applies to all trading activities..

whereas one of the legal website links I posted earlier states two of the criteria are...

1/ The contract is made at your home or away from the business premises of the supplier.

2/ You did not request the visit but the supplier initiated the visit either by telephone canvassing or a previous unrequested visit.

Which quite clearly does NOT include work where the customer has rung you up to go and provide a quote!

So who is right?

Mr telephone person? (who have been known to make mistakes in the past e.g. Volimax was told things about membership of NIC from NIC staff.. which turned out to be wrong??? )

OR

Mr webpage writer? (which also have been known to have erroneous data printed on them, I recall an instance of a large electrical retailer advertising products as ridiculously low prices because of an error with decimal places on the prices!!!)

So without further factual confirmation, this brings us back to common sense, good business instinct, picking your customers wisely and getting on with the job..

Bearing in mind a few statistics and general thoughts....

How many instances of this occurrence are you personally aware of..

Do you have links to the cases that have been reported.. and/or Prosecuted, and the number of these such cases??

As you suggest 'savy' customers may try and pull a fast one...

BUT by your own admission getting the customer to sign a waiver is the 'GET OUT CLAUSE'...

Remember also that 'savy' legal guidance can prove that black is blue..

So I suspect it is not as easily cut and dry for Mr customer as you are trying to make out.

You can go ahead doing your extra paperwork..

But at this point in time I have no intention of doing so.

Just to add:

All of my quotes have always, (past 12 years) included the customers preferred date for work to start...

so not only do they sign to say they want work done...

BUT when they would like it to start...

Also with regard to your assertioin that the

DISTANCE SELLING REGULATIONS

can come into play...

have a read here...

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf

you will find paragraph

When do the DSRs apply?2.8 The DSRs apply to your business if you sell goods or services without

face-to-face contact with your consumer using an organised distance

sale or service provision scheme for instance via:

n the internet

n text messaging

n phone calls

n faxing

n interactive TV, or

n mail order

 

[baldelectrician]

This nanny state stuff really does my box in

The cooling off stuff is where tha hassle is, the distance selling is a red herring

I have had discussions with trading standards regarding this (who are actually quite helpful and on the ball).

I posed 2 questions;

1. I had a job arranged by email and phone as the client was living away and the husband just cancelled the work when I arrived- it caused a bit of a domestic as the wife had arranged it. TS informed me the client was in breach of contract and I could have taken things further. I decided to just walk away as I was busy enough and
   
2. The second one was a scenario. If the client were to sign the paperwork in my van would the distance selling regs apply. As the paperwork was done outwith the customers property and in my van the distance selling regs may not apply
   

He said the second one may be a decision for the sheriff

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

This nanny state stuff really does my box inThe cooling off stuff is where tha hassle is, the distance selling is a red herring

I have had discussions with trading standards regarding this (who are actually quite helpful and on the ball).

I posed 2 questions;

1. I had a job arranged by email and phone as the client was living away and the husband just cancelled the work when I arrived- it caused a bit of a domestic as the wife had arranged it. TS informed me the client was in breach of contract and I could have taken things further. I decided to just walk away as I was busy enough and
   
2. The second one was a scenario. If the client were to sign the paperwork in my van would the distance selling regs apply. As the paperwork was done outwith the customers property and in my van the distance selling regs may not apply
   

He said the second one may be a decision for the sheriff

Your illustrations do IMHO actually show that a bit of common sense is the order of the day!

Keep the legal jargoneeze for the correct place where it applies.. Door to door sales & Internet type jobbies!

 

[sparkytim]

Specs

I think you will find some of your Web site quotes are OUT OF Date.

This Law changed in 2008 to INCLUDE anyone INVITED to a Persons Home.

I found TS Very helpful in discussions with TWO different persons on this and in agreement that this was never ment to apply to our scenarios but adamant that they DO.

I tried to find any Loop holes, giving various situations as suggested by Posts on here but in ALL cases was informed that failure to issue a Notice of the right to cancel was an offence.

So like it or not you take your chances.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Specs I think you will find some of your Web site quotes are OUT OF Date.

This Law changed in 2008 to INCLUDE anyone INVITED to a Persons Home.

I found TS Very helpful in discussions with TWO different persons on this and in agreement that this was never meant to apply to our scenarios but adamant that they DO.

I tried to find any Loop holes, giving various situations as suggested by Posts on here but in ALL cases was informed that failure to issue a Notice of the right to cancel was an offence.

So like it or not you take your chances.

Well Mr Tim sir this is one we are going to have to agree to disagree on...

I am perfectly satisfied that my current procedures for agreeing contracts with all my potential customers are reasonable, appropriate and do not contravene any laws..

INCLUDING "The Cancellation of Contracts made in a Consumer

 

[sparkytim]

Quote from my local Tradeing Standards (Tony at Suffolk C.C. 01473 264859) was, "This is yet to be tested in court as yet, PROBABLY the Judge would see common sense"

I hope none of us have to be a test case.

I do not have the time to comment any further, but as you rightly say we all have to make up our own minds how to run or business.

Thanks

Tim

 

[Doc Hudson]

Another very interesting healthy discussion. These grey areas do leave a lot of important points for all tradespersons to carefully consider. As Tim suggests it is a test case that would be the pivotal point on how much it applies to the average electricians typical work. I think the phrase will be watch this space. Thanks again to all our contributing members to this thread.

Doc H.

 

[Badger]

:worshipBatty presses the COMMON SENSE button :Applaud :Applaud:Applaud

If you spend a few minutes surfing and researching this "Right to cancel" topic

I think you will find it IS primarily as batty says..

Namely it was introduced to legislate against cold-callers, doorstep sales persons,

AND businesses who telephone cold call then get you to INVITE a sales rep to the home.

This is NOT the scenario where a customer request various traders to come and tender a quote for some work to be done.

IMHO where a trader is quoting for some prospective work contract,

No formal payment is made at contract agreement time,

No direct debit agreement is made at contract time.

The customer makes NO financial outlay for either the goods or services

AND has provided no bank details allowing any monies to be taken prior to work commencing.

In a nutshell the customer has made NO loss or any commitment to a LOSS..

Now if you have made NO LOSS...

AND you are not committed to a future loss...

you have got NOTHING to reclaim back!!!!!!!!!!!

And as these legal rights also talk about the sellers responsibility to REIMBURSE the customer...

WTF are you going to re-imburse... 1 x Box of fresh air & invisible ink!??? ?:|

Where there is NO financial loss to either party..

Who is going to instigate legal proceedings to recover NOTHING!???headbangheadbang

Whereas a doorstop seller may have taken monies or a commitment to payment for goods or services which the customer now decides they no longer wish to have...

So they can RECLAIM any LOSS or cancel a payment agreement, against the doorstep seller within the 7 day period!

http://www.desktoplawyer.co.uk/dtl/index.cfm?event=base:article&node=A76076BD76927

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/The%20Right%20To%20Cancel.htm

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/9954-door-step-selling.htm

etc..

etc..

etc..

here you go i found that box of fresh air that you are out of pocket for and also the invisible ink as well

 

[sparkytim]

here you go i found that box of fresh air that you are out of pocket for and also the invisible ink as well

Origin Noted - no offense taken

 

[Badger]

here you go i found that box of fresh air that you are out of pocket for and also the invisible ink as well

spec loc pm me your address, and ill send it to you instead of you having to collect in person as ill be deffo out that night :^O

 

[sparkytim]

"Rogue fined"

Please see January Professional Electrician Page 8 under the above title.

interesting amongst other things they were fined for was;

"..failing to provide a canellation notice to a customer.."

So appears it HAS been tested in court already.