Bathroom Wiring - D Skelton - Other Interpretations.

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The problem I see is that some people interpret the regulations to suit. The regulations are not just thought up overnight they evolve over many months of continual debate.

There was a major problem with the 17th edition regulations, but it was pushed through even though the amendments were already being discussed.

The IET were fully aware of this "faults", but were happy that the main content was good to use.

Learning to pass an exam, and learning for a deeper knowledge base are two very different things.

Most institutions now provide courses to become an electrician, they impart fractional information to provide the student to pass the eventual examination. They do not however go into the detail of understanding.

I believe this is what has happened to you, you can pass the exam but have little understanding behind the question.

I posted a comment in another thread on this forum that went along the lines of, if you understand the basic science behind electricity you can understand the universe.

This is not a flippant remark, and I challenge anyone to check this out for themselves.

If we take isolation for an example, we must ask why it is required in the first place.

A few years ago a young plumber was killed because he wanted a cup of tea. The home owner asked him if he wanted a brew, out of habbit he said yes. He had isolated the circuit he was working on at the time, but had not locked it out. The lady put the kettle on and realising that the circuit was off duly turned it on with devastating results.

Had a local isolating point been installed the circuit would never have required isolating and the plumber would be alive today. This example also shows why lock out kits should always be used.

 
2) Fan needs isolation of Live feed/ Trigger Switch wire / Neutral . ( 3 pole)

The OCPD for the circuit achieves this perfectly, unless as previously stated the installation is TT and the OCPD isn't a DP RCBO.

Now there is a classic example of a half baked solution if ever I heard one.... 

Consider a typical timer fan installation...

The run on timer circuit goes faulty so it keeps the fan permanently energised...

Customer rings up late on Friday with a fault ..

"hello my extractor fan just keeps on running where can I turn it off?" 

Skelton Electrical solution...

"oh yes just go and turn off the whole circuit...  or just leave it running till we can get their on Monday fix the fault" 

p.s. 

this functional requirement applies to TT, TNS, TNCS installations all the same!

Wasn't there some guidance in BS7671 about minimising inconvenience in the event of faults...

Some may consider this only relevant to whole circuits etc...

But a competent person should be well aware of realistic issues than can and do arise in the real world..

:C

 
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Manator,

I'm sure you will understand, as will a few others.

When I say:

Without electricity we would not be here, and I don't just mean the forums, internet, computers, I mean that life and the universe as we know it would not exist...

;)

Anyone who cannot understand and explain this comment, certainly does not warrant calling themselves an Engineer...

 
I believe this is what has happened to you, you can pass the exam but have little understanding behind the question.

This is not a flippant remark, and I challenge anyone to check this out for themselves.
I'm not going to get into another argument with you like we did on one of the other forums, but what I will say is that you know very little about me. You can assume all you like, but it doesn't make you correct. It is a flippant remark no matter how much you try and disguise it, and an arrogant one too.

With regards to the plumber, like you say, if he'd followed safe isolation procedure, it wouldn't have happened. We can't reasonably be expected to fit DP isolation on every single item of current using equipment, but we can be expected to fit it with a means of switching off, and the circuit it is supplied from can reasonably be expected to be capable of being isolated.

Really, this isn't rocket science. It's a bathroom fan for Christ sake.

 
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Now there is a classic example of a half baked solution if ever I heard one.... 

Consider a typical timer fan installation...

The run on timer circuit goes faulty so it keeps the fan permanently energised...

Customer rings up lat on Friday with a fault ..

"hello my extractor fan just keeps on running where can I turn it off?" 

Skelton Electrical solution...

"oh yes just go and turn off the whole circuit...  or just leave it running till we can get their on Monday fix the fault"
Listen, I've never advocated doing it one way or the other, all I've done is point out the misinformation out there.

"Fans must have three pole isolation"

"Fans must be fused down"

"Fans must have local isolation"

The only point I have made is that there is more than one way to skin a cat with regards to bathroom fans. Bear in mind that there are also many different types of fan available on the market other than ones with timer over run. You gonna fit a 3 pole isolator to a humidistat fan, a non-timer fan or one with integral switching?

If you are called out to fix a problem with the said fan at night, how would you go about doing anything if you had to turn all the lights off to inspect the said fan?

Your right it is not rocket science.

For your amusement

http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=56820

I am everywhere even in that debate.
Errrrrr, use a torch maybe????

 
How are you going to offer a means of safe isolation for mechanical maintenance in the event of a fan fault, and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault, IF, you have not provided a local means of isolation for the motor (fan)?

 
there is a regulation about using any artificial portable light to work on electrical installations, I wonder if you can find it?

 
If you are called out to fix a problem with the said fan at night, how would you go about doing anything if you had to turn all the lights off to inspect the said fan?

Your right it is not rocket science.

For your amusement

http://www.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=56820

I am everywhere even in that debate.
I still to this day stand by what I said. Not that I'm going to debate about someone on another forum behind their back, that would just be unprofessional really wouldn't it.

Don't suppose you'll be posting a link to the thread on the other one where you don't exactly drum up support after attacking me for no reason?

How are you going to offer a means of safe isolation for mechanical maintenance in the event of a fan fault, and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault, IF, you have not provided a local means of isolation for the motor (fan)?
Turn it off at the switch? Or are we specifically talking about fans with timer over-runs here?

 
Oh, you know OMS is quite a character, no it's not me, but I do know OMS & I WAS in school with OMS also.

However, this is NOT about personal attacks it is about competence, and safety, as well as regulations.

It is also more importantly about SAFETY and safe interpretation of regulations, electrical systems, etc. in a competent manner by competent persons.

Which when push comes to shove, will stand up in a court of law, hopefully on contractual issues, NOT because some poor innocent person has been injured, or worse killed.

Emma........

 
Canoeboy said:
Well why don't you pop back over there and finish the debate - Questions were asked and you never had the decency to reply - thats unprofessional  (and they are all very decent over there - i can assure you - although wool pulling over eyes and wearing camo gear doesn't work with them)

Heat and Kitchen spring to mind - I was on that thread waiting with intrigue

Just digressing.......
Heat and kitchen? Not sure I follow?

I have spoken with members involved in that thread over the phone, I know a few very well, I haven't been back because I said that I wouldn't be posting on it any more. The debate is finished.

However, this is NOT about personal attacks it is about competence, and safety, as well as regulations.
Hell I've got a thick enough skin to know it's not personal, it's just because I'm not part of this clique, I get it, I don't mind really.

 
Listen, I've never advocated doing it one way or the other, all I've done is post more misinformation out there.

Corrected that for you.... :innocent

Go back and read your OWN posts..

The OCPD for the circuit achieves this perfectly, unless as previously stated the installation is TT and the OCPD isn't a DP RCBO.
Clearly you DID say that the OCPD could provide suitable isolation for a fan  (possibly excluding TT)

You may as well say do away with light switches as well...

I don't think the regs actually say you MUST have light switches either...

as the OCPD can be used to turn em all on/off in one go!!!!!

Reality and practically and functionality say other wise though..

Why single out extractor fans as not needing a local means of isolation???

As you say a lot of misinformation is posted on forums...

Which reminds me of something to do with.....

Pots.. Kettles... Black and name calling...

Or something?????

 
Corrected that for you.... :innocent

Go back and read your OWN posts..

Clearly you DID say that the OCPD could provide suitable isolation for a fan  (possibly excluding TT)

You may as well say do away with light switches as well...

I don't think the regs actually say you MUST have light switches either...

as the OCPD can be used to turn em all on/off in one go!!!!!

Reality and practically and functionality say other wise though..

Why single out extractor fans as not needing a local means of isolation???

As you say a lot of misinformation is posted on forums...

Which reminds me of something to do with.....

Pots.. Kettles... Black and name calling...

Or something?????
Yeah, I did say that an OCP could provide suitable isolation. Did I say that was the way it must be done? No

Canoeboy said:
Part of this Clique ? this Clique ? Is this something to do with your fame being part of that debate - the one on internet TV and all that  ? 

You spoke with them - I would ask who - But as we know politicians never answer a direct question :slap

Perhaps you spoke to me ? Nah i would have remembered that I feel sure......

Your debate finished over there - For your own reasons 

Just thinking......
Fame? What fame?

The debate finished, if I remember correctly, because it was going nowhere. I had my views, he had his, end of.

 
Yeah, I did say that an OCP could provide suitable isolation. Did I say that was the way it must be done? No

Evans Electric, on 09 May 2014 - 8:29 PM, said

but you'll still need a 3 pole isolator as well .
Again, wrong, unless manufacturers instructions specically state this.

These are all very common myths that have been introduced to the electrician's lexicon by a book known as 'The Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'. It's all a load of gumpf and has no grounding in BS 7671 whatsoever.
Sooooo....

You did say an OCPD could be used....  But then you now say you dont....

yet when someone suggested a local isolator would be a pretty darn good practical real world solution to isolating the fan...

you also said that was not needed....

If I am reading this right your very common myth is that NEITHER a local isolator nor the OCPD should be used for isolating a fan installed in the "Real World".......

Or is it that BOTH should be used....???

Or are you just spouting your misconceptions on forums I believe you mentioned earlier...??

From the recent post content you do appear to be talking classic 5WW career changer gibberish...

That neither addresses the OP's original question..

NOR provides any practical sensible guidance about applying BS7671 in real installation situations!

:shakehead

 
Sooooo....

You did say an OCPD could be used....  But then you now say you dont....

yet when someone suggested a local isolator would be a pretty darn good practical real world solution to isolating the fan...

you also said that was not needed....

If I am reading this right your very common myth is that NEITHER a local isolator nor the OCPD should be used for isolating a fan installed in the "Real World".......

Or is it that BOTH should be used....???

Or are you just spouting your misconceptions on forums I believe you mentioned earlier...??

From the recent post content you do appear to be talking classic 5WW career changer gibberish...

That neither addresses the OP's original question..

NOR provides any practical sensible guidance about applying BS7671 in real installation situations!

:shakehead
No, all I've said is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Have I fitted three pole isolators to timer fans before? Yes. Have I ommitted three pole isolators to timer fans before? Yes. There is more than one option, that is all. There is no need for fans to be fused or isolated locally (unless called for by manufacturers instructions that you specifically want to follow). Sometimes it is good practice, sometimes it's fine not to fit. We are the electricians, we make that call.

As for the 5WW comment, please...

 
I would say none of what you have said helps the OP. he needs advice not an argument about isolation of fans.  Please actually state what you would do in this instance. All the information is there.

 
I would say none of what you have said helps the OP. he needs advice not an argument about isolation of fans.  Please actually state what you would do in this instance. All the information is there.
Probably RCD FCU the bathroom lighting circuit. But I haven't seen the job, so can't say for sure.

 
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