Bathroom Wiring - D Skelton - Other Interpretations.

[Sidewinder]

Now IMHO that would depend on the requirements for the device...

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Unfortunately over the last few years a few deaths have occurred from domestic electrics ( not the recent wire trapped in the metal stud case)  and the owners/landlords have not had to answer , so a unskilled person using a tool to remove a cover ( and most likely up a ladder or balancing on the edge of a bath) would be the person at fault and no one else. If they did that they probably would not turn the switch (if fitted) off anyhow.

 

[ProDave]

A further thought on this.

The isolation switch is required for MAINTENANCE on a mechanical device.

A small domestic fan works, or it doesn't. If it doesn't it gets replaced.  there is NO maintenance work to do

So a simple risk assessment shows no maintenance requirement, and the power of the motor is so low even if you were stupid enough to put a finger in the rotating blade no injury of any note would occur (hence why there are no interlock switches on the "guards")

So I personally am happy to omit an isolator for a domestic fan in some cases.

I think the "test" should be, is there any real maintenance work to do?  anything that has serviceable parts, replaceable parts, or requires periodic lubrication or adjustment, needs an isolator.  A bathroom fan does not.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Actually a lot of fan manufactures do recommend regular cleaning of the fan grill & blades...

I can't believe you have never seen a bathroom (or kitchen) fan all gunked up with dust/grease/insect debris  ?

Open the cover, clean the blades off..   works loads better after a spring clean!!

Now my fans at home do get regular occasional cleaning..

So Domestic fan maintenance can be a requirement...

Now if we want a good chuckle  you can read the instructions from that TLC web site Vent-Axia booklet...

Should be done...

Once a Month... 

By a qualified electrician...

With the power removed..!!!

Cleaning (recommended once a month)

A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN MUST CARRY

OUT ALL CLEANING.

1. Before cleaning, isolate the fan completely

from the mains supply.

2. Remove the front cover by pressing the

release catches located on the sides at the

unit with a 3mm screwdriver, whilst pulling the

front cover forward

L

3. To clean the front cover, either wipe it with a

damp, lint free cloth or wash it in warm soapy

water. Thoroughly dry the front cover and

refit.

4. Do not immerse the fan in water or other

liquids to clean any other parts of the fan.

5. Never use strong solvents to clean the fan.

6. Apart from cleaning, no other maintenance is

required.

Back to common sense...

Many customer never clean their fans ever.. 

But it is possible that a fan needs to be isolated during its installation timespan..

and although a domestic fan may not kill you..

they can give a ruddy sharp whack on the fingers it you have them poked in the blades when they start spinning!!!

especially some of the better quality fans..

 

[NozSpark]

Has no one else been to look at an extractor fan that has siezed up (for whatever reason), but with the motor humming like a bee on steriods and as hot as a road side burger vans grill plate?

Surely that alone is a valid reason for installing fan isolators?

 

[ProDave]

Has no one else been to look at an extractor fan that has siezed up (for whatever reason), but with the motor humming like a bee on steriods and as hot as a road side burger vans grill plate?

Surely that alone is a valid reason for installing fan isolators?

Yes.

I would isolate and REPLACE it, just like a dud light fitting. no need for a local isolator switch.

If you are arguing you need local isolation in order to replace it, then that argument applies to all electrical accessories?

That law IMHO was written to allow safe maintenance of machinery,. and is wrongly being applied to small domestic fans.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

A)If you are arguing you need local isolation in order to replace it, then that argument applies to all electrical accessories?

B)That law IMHO was written to allow safe maintenance of machinery,. and is wrongly being applied to small domestic fans.

A, No as the isolator is for mechanical maintenance.

B, A domestic fan still has moving parts that could cause an injury so as far as i am concerned an isolator is asked for in the regulations.

A further thought on this.

The isolation switch is required for MAINTENANCE on a mechanical device.

A small domestic fan works, or it doesn't. If it doesn't it gets replaced.  there is NO maintenance work to do

So a simple risk assessment shows no maintenance requirement, and the power of the motor is so low even if you were stupid enough to put a finger in the rotating blade no injury of any note would occur (hence why there are no interlock switches on the "guards")

So I personally am happy to omit an isolator for a domestic fan in some cases.

I think the "test" should be, is there any real maintenance work to do?  anything that has serviceable parts, replaceable parts, or requires periodic lubrication or adjustment, needs an isolator.  A bathroom fan does not.

I dont agree with this and maintenance is needed/should be carried out.

Has this circle got back to the beginning yet  :innocent

 

[Blue Duck]

Think your going round in circles still

Every situation is different you just have to adapt to your surroundings like a ninja hear

 

[Steve3948]

So where are we with a bedroom type ceiling fan, like fantasia, I have never seen an isolation switch installed for that or ever fitted one.

You go to the fuseboard and isolate the circuit supplying the bedroom fan.

I do however install triple pole fan isolation switches outside the bathroom above the door, or along side in-line duct fan in roof void on new and re-furb works.

Never fit 3A fuse unless it's on a circuit other than a 6A B Type Mcb..

 

[ProDave]

So where are we with a bedroom type ceiling fan, like fantasia, I have never seen an isolation switch installed for that or ever fitted one.

You go to the fuseboard and isolate the circuit supplying the bedroom fan.

THAT admirably demonstrates the "wrong approach" that has been adopted.

We fit an isolator to something that rarely gets any maintenance (bathroom fan) yet omit to fit an isolator to something that may be serviced / repaired (ceiling fan)

The root of the problem is "doing it the way it's always been done" or "the way everyone does it" instead of THINKING about it, analysing the risks,  analysing what maintenance / repair is likely to be done, and them making an informed decision whether to fit an isolator or not.

 

[Sidewinder]

I believe that a ceiling fan also requires a means of isolation for mechanical maintenance.

IIRC the last one I fitted (at home) required it.

Now we have here the rudimentary start of a DRA.

The hazards are injury from mechanical parts and injury from electricity.

The injury from mechanical parts is likely to be minor, restricted to fingers for example.

The injury from electricity could be death.

Now you need to look at anything else, when they can occur, to whom, under what circumstances, then put in the counter measures to reduce the risk to an acceptable level...

 

[Steve3948]

Sidewinder I totally agree and applying a lock off tab to the mcb that supplies said fan, attaching any notice warning sign etc to the fuseboard would provide enough to satisfy any court of law that you are working in a safe manner. 

Should anyone else other than a skilled electrician or whatever word the manufacturer chooses to use for a qualified electrician tamper with said fan then they are not working within the recommendations of the manufacturer.

To be fair the Fantasia fan I have in my bedroom has plug-in terminal block on the base plate, so undoing screws and un-plugging from baseplate is actually a means of isolation, similar to to the Vortice M100 bathroom fans and some Greenwood.

 

[Sidewinder]

Did I fit a means of isolation for mechanical maintenance...

5th amendment anyone!

 

[Doc Hudson]

The only likely reasons for being on the receiving end of such disapproval I have already made clear, and as much as I welcome your tired attempts to discredit me, as much as I accept that as the newbie on here I'll have to take at least some stick, it ain't half getting boring now. Move on fella, I ain't your enemy.

believe me, this place is well known to many many many of those outside of it to be probably the most cliquey of all (not that others aren't cliquey too [but that's just a sad fact of all forums without exception])!

Those are interesting comments Mr Skelton; checking your profile reveals you have been a registered member since Mar 2011, over 3 years by my calculation. ("D Skelton Member Since 06 Mar 2011 OfflineLast Active Yesterday, 04:34 PM" Obviously you could also have viewed without registering before this time). And with 80+ posts. I am not sure how you calculate if someone is a newby. Is it time, post content, reputation? Possibly you are not so new after all. If it is so well known to others, (and presumably yourself) that this is a "Cliquey" forum, or the most cliquey as you suggest. Why did you bother coming back here with 3+ years knowledge that it is not the type of environment that suits you. Generally when people consider any environment below their standards they just leave and walk away. Or is it actually a better place than what you are making it out to be? Maybe some of the problem is you just expect everyone to accept every word you say without challenging it and you do not like people swimming against the tide of your ideals.

As you quite rightly suggest all forums are susceptible to members misinterpreting other members, it is a fundamental problem of written text. And we all know that wiring regulations are open to a lot of interpretation and deviations when we are designing a solution for a particular installation. It is the balance between what is Feasible, Optional, Possible, Achievable, Affordable, Practical and ultimately Acceptable to the client who is paying the bill! So arguments about A is better than B and B is better than C but C is better than A, will always be with us. But whenever a debate starts slipping down into jibes and criticism of the forum itself, then that is a clear sign that someone is dropping the ball a little bit and probably needs to step back and chill out. I am confident that the majority of our members are adult enough to decide how cliquey a forum is for themselves and I don't doubt for one minute that all of our members are also capable of moving on because they find a forum is not to their liking. As with all interpretations of anything be it regulations or forums, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not mean that you opinion is right

Doc H.

 

[Jono Pashley]

For what its worth my personal preference at the moment is to use click mini grid with their lockable 3p iso and a fuse carrier if required outside the bathroom door. Neat, cheap and easy. 

 

[kerching]

For what its worth my personal preference at the moment is to use click mini grid with their lockable 3p iso and a fuse carrier if required outside the bathroom door. Neat, cheap and easy. 

Good call, I like that idea.

could even put 2 fuses....one for perm feed and one for trigger.  maybe a bit OTT though

just liking

 

[Steve3948]

I assume the fuses are because you are not connecting to the lighting circuit or its not a 6A B Type Mcb and something else.

....Just asking.....

 

[kerching]

I assume the fuses are because you are not connecting to the lighting circuit or its not a 6A B Type Mcb and something else.

....Just asking.....

On some fans the manuf. states that "as far as they are concerned and after all we made the fricking thing in the first place and tested it and all that compliance malarky etc etcetc yahda yahda yahda that it cost us an arm and a leg to get approved.....we advise protecting the fan with a 3 Amp fuse"When off a lighting circuit the OCPD is often 6a and some manuf. say this is too much so advise the use of a 3A fuse

Just seemed like a good solution to me

I am surprised that there has not been more discussion abou...............hang on a minute

Just missing the use of smileys and coloured text on the ipad so I cannot hi light my text/sarcasm

IN BLACK

 

[Steve3948]

 But which would blow first a 6A Type B mcb or a 3A Cartridge Fuse. 

 

[kerching]

But which would blow first a 6A Type B mcb or a 3A Cartridge Fuse. 

EX-fricking-ACTLY!

Mind you, somebody with a LOT more knowledge and EXPERIENCE than us mere mortals, will doubtless be along and provide some calculations or references!

Me ?

I KNOW NOTHING....see avatar for scathing criticism of my futile existence to date