Can a non time served (short course) person call themselves an Electrician

[safedepth]

If proper 4 year apprenticeships had remained there would be no ambiguity. As it stands pretty much anyone can call themselves an electrician and there seems little to measure 'competency' even passing 2391 is non real test as anyone can regurgitate info. In industry there are sparks (4 year time served) and 'made up sparks' (those who have proved themselves capable and done sufficient training and experience to be made worthy of the honoured 'Qualified Electrician' status.Nuff said.

Rev,

In general I would agree with you. Unfortunately 4 year apprenticeships are not so easy to find now, as a result we have the situation we are in. My argument with Steps is centered on his inability to quantify his opinions and yet insists on calling them facts.

If a full apprenticeship was a requirement to trade as a "person who installs or maintains electrical equipment" I would not be doing it. I couldn't get the time off in order to complete it, day release for college is tricky when your under water for 3 months at a time as I was for many years.

If that was a requirement in the publics eye I would also not be trading still now. Customers have me back for more despite and not because of my charges. I have never hidden my history from them, some are in fact ex superiors from my navy days. They have me as they know that I can relied upon.

 

[Jono Pashley]

I may just scrape it as an Electrician after all.......now wheres my beer :Salute

 

[steptoe]

Rev,In general I would agree with you. Unfortunately 4 year apprenticeships are not so easy to find now, as a result we have the situation we are in. My argument with Steps is centered on his inability to quantify his opinions and yet insists on calling them facts.

If a full apprenticeship was a requirement to trade as a "person who installs or maintains electrical equipment" I would not be doing it. I couldn't get the time off in order to complete it, day release for college is tricky when your under water for 3 months at a time as I was for many years.

If that was a requirement in the publics eye I would also not be trading still now. Customers have me back for more despite and not because of my charges. I have never hidden my history from them, some are in fact ex superiors from my navy days. They have me as they know that I can relied upon.

EAWR page 5 para 4 last sentence just about sums up most 5WW,

and for anyone wondering why its so hard to get an apprenticeship nowadays, supply and demand, the market is saturated massively, and having a load of 5WW dragging it down even more is destroying it for everybody.

why do people think being an electrician is just another job? its not, its a vocation, a way of life almost, Im not saying I love it, but I wouldnt dream of going to school for a couple of weeks then thinking I could 'drive' a submarine or fly a plane, so whats the difference?

what all of the 5WW need to do [and it should be compulsory] is have in big letters on all their stationery and van, 'I'm NOT A TRADESMAN, I'm NOT TIME SERVED'

 

[revjames]

I agree Steps, a trade is something you go into straight from school and is more a vocation than anything else. Out of school into another 4 years of 'school' along with hands on one on one training with a qualified craftsman. Many apprentices suffered poor pay and long hours and a day a week at college til 8 in the evening to finally get qualified. It was a cherished thing. I come from an industry where a time served man was called a craftsman. Would you call someone who has done a 5 week course a craftsman? I doubt it.

 

[safedepth]

EAWR page 5 para 4 last sentence just about sums up most 5WW, and for anyone wondering why its so hard to get an apprenticeship nowadays, supply and demand, the market is saturated massively, and having a load of 5WW dragging it down even more is destroying it for everybody.

why do people think being an electrician is just another job? its not, its a vocation, a way of life almost, Im not saying I love it, but I wouldnt dream of going to school for a couple of weeks then thinking I could 'drive' a submarine or fly a plane, so whats the difference?

what all of the 5WW need to do [and it should be compulsory] is have in big letters on all their stationery and van, 'I'm NOT A TRADESMAN, I'm NOT TIME SERVED'

Steps,

So long as you continue to evade the answer I shall continue to persue it. Where in EAWR, a document you clearly love since you refer to it so often, does it state I can't call myself an electrician?

It is no good to call people names because they don't agree with you, you have repeatedly stated that it is a fact that I can't call myself an electrician and use EAWR as your evidence. There is nothing in that document to support you. Now produce your supporting evidence or shut up.

 

[steptoe]

how on earth do you call yourself competent after 5 weeks of being taught to use an index and read a book?

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or are you really just as dis-illusioned as the rest of the 5WW

 

[safedepth]

Answer the question. You started this. Now back up your claims.

 

[steptoe]

I thought I had, would 5 weeks of training make me competent to drive a submarine?

NO

so how does 5 weeks of training (learning to read) make you competent to wire someones house?

it DOESNT, and that is because you are NOT an electrician.

if, and only if, you can prove otherwise then I'll accept it, a non existent thing cannot be proved, so how can I prove a nothing? you are not what you claim to be, IMO, so in order to change that you need to prove it,

I cant prove something that doesnt exist.

ask a Christian to prove God exists? its about faith.

there are faeries at the bottom of my garden, but I cant prove that to you either, its probably only in my head, a bit like your compliance with reg16 is in yours.

 

[Manator]

I can only see this argument as being a personal two way debate at the exclusion of all others. Please agree to disagree so that the origin of this thread can progress.

There are other threads following a similar vein and this debate if continued in the same manner will result in this thread being closed.

 

[poni]

q

 

[safedepth]

I can only see this argument as being a personal two way debate at the exclusion of all others. Please agree to disagree so that the origin of this thread can progress.There are other threads following a similar vein and this debate if continued in the same manner will result in this thread being closed.

Manator.

I feel it would be a great shame if you were to let Steps off the hook in this way. He has clearly and repeatedly stated that EAWR states I can't call myself an electrician yet when pushed he fails to show that evidence. Instead of allowing him to bluster about he should be encouraged to qualify his ridiculous statements, without that all of his previous ramblings on here will lose all credibility. His opinions are statements of fact in his mind only.

 

[Manator]

I would not allow anyone to get off the hook, however the debate has consisted of yourself and Steptoe going around in circles.

Let me make one thing clear, competence and the right to call anyone an electrician can only be proved in a court of law, the word electrician is very loosely used to describe a person who is by definition of his works involved in the electrical installation industry.

The grading of electricians has to some extent been mislaid along the way, and the inception of part p has contributed to the dilution of these grades.

The fact remains that all this is now in the past, and what has happened has happened, it is of little use in debating who is and who is not an electrician. I have my own experiences and should I admit it my own prejudiced thoughts, but I would never try to argue those on a level like an open forum because the facts are what is done is done.

We have on this forum a Vet, now one thing I can tell you is that the Vet is not an electrician and to be brutally honest I have wondered why he is so involved in this forum. What I can tell you about this Vet though is this, whilst not an electrician, I really do think he has a grasp on the regulations that I have seen lacking in others.

Now lets take an example of a case put before the court, the Vet has just installed a new socket and gone through all the procedures with building control, has tested and issued a certificate and every aspect of BS7671 has been followed. The conclusion of the court in assessment of his competence will take into consideration of his past experiences, and not only those that relate to the electrical sector but will include his education and understanding of the use of regulations, very important in his everyday profession, it will also take into account of his process for the design and reporting of the installation according to statute laws.

At the end of the case to prove competency relevant documentation will have to be provided, and direct questioning of the Vet will take place.

Given the basic facts of this example I would have no doubt that the Vet will be vindicated and declared competent.

So now do you see how futile this argument really is?

It is purely based on the prejudice that is what almost all certified apprentices have, including myself but at least I am willing to acknowledge the change.

My prejudice is based on the fact that all my mates took the proverbial out of me because of my low wage, they could afford to go out and get the girls whilst I was left behind to feel like a geek.

Now all you have to do is retrain, and in a shorter time, and with very little financial hardship.

I will however defend any so called 5ww if they prove to me they are competent,Sidewinder PM'd me this last week to tell me of one member he had the pleasure of working with, and his assessment of that member was outstanding.

 

[safedepth]

Very valid comments for which I thank you.

I will however reiterate that all I am trying to do is show Steptoes claims to be unfounded. I make no claims on my competency or ability. It is impossible on this medium anyway.

we have a big difference on this but if he wishes to castigate others for making unfounded statements he should follow his own advice.

 

[Manator]

Steptoe has on occasion given us some very strong views some of which have resulted in reprimands from admin and moderators alike. However I can say that he is a valued member of this forum who has a vast knowledge and is so helpful on various levels, but in his own words is inapt at putting across some views and statements.

I have read the posts included here and can surmise from the references to those put forward by Steptoe, that what he was trying to say was that under some statute laws, without a proper background recognised regime you could find it difficult to prove your competence.

However in my post above you will see that competence does not have to be proved by training but rather experience and skill in doing the work you are doing.

On a lighter note, if you two ever met I would guarantee that you would be very surprised at each others ability, and become very good friends.

 

[safedepth]

I would welcome the opportunity to meet. Life is hard enough without the need to argue on a forum with someone who you generally believe to be a sound person. Believe it or not I myself have on occasion been accused of being headstrong. I know, you find it hard to believe.

 

[steptoe]

Very valid comments for which I thank you. I will however reiterate that all I am trying to do is show Steptoes claims to be unfounded. I make no claims on my competency or ability. It is impossible on this medium anyway.

we have a big difference on this but if he wishes to castigate others for making unfounded statements he should follow his own advice.

well, I have previously stated it,on previous threads, and I will once again, if you can prove to me otherwise then I will accept the fact you are competent.

I have in fact met some 5WW whom I now believe to be competent, but until then I take every 5WW as being in non compliance with reg16 of EAWR,

I do not have to prove otherwise, I cannot prove a negative, you on the other hand must prove something you claim to be.

have you answered my question about me being able to drive a submarine yet?

yet, you, as a submariner, expect me to accept you as being an electrician after 5 weeks of reading tests.

I dont think manator has lket me off in any way whatsoever, I am willing to exchange my [little] skills and knowledge with anyone that asks for them,

but Im a little bit prejudice to try and impart >20yrs of mistakes to someone that knows it all already after 5weeks.

I have met some good people from this forum, 5WW, time served, indentured, and mature apprentices, heck Ive even met some DIYers and plain and simple householders,[havent met any vets yet though],

and all had the same point to make, to learn, only problem is I maybe learnt more from most of them than they learnt of me,

learning is what it is all about, but if after 5weeks in school and you find you cant get a job so you set up on your own then you are beyond help,

is this your situation safedepth? cos it certainly seems like it by your various posts.

BTW, I have absolutely nothing against forces folks, just the attitude and speilo they get when leaving that you will have a trade in civvy street, :slap

half my mothers family are ex forces, Ive worked for the forces, Ive yet to meet a front-liner that can anything but what they are taught, you may be different,

I still need you to prove what part of my statement that you are not a competent electrician is unfounded though, IMO.

I dont have to prove the negative, ask my faeries if you dont believe me.

 

[safedepth]

I give up. Manator, is this yet more ramblings from a man yet to qualify his unfounded statements?

 

[steptoe]

no, its more drivel from someone who is yet to either prove his competence, or else get a job he can do, as they say in the forces, all the kit, full of sh**!

or can you tell me, if I do a 5 week course can I drive s submarine? well, could I.?

you seem to think doing a 5 week course makes you competent enough to wire someones house, so whats the difference.?

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by the way, I dont have to qualify anything, its you to has to prove your competence.

or cant you do that.?

 

[safedepth]

I have no need to prove anything to you, I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims. You insist EAWR will support your rantings but they do not. Accept your errors. Maybe then we discuss other matters.

 

[steptoe]

Im afraid you are safedepth,

you claim to be an electrician, fraudulently until you can prove otherwise!

you dont need to prove it to me, but then again, its obvious you have no morals!

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Ive made lots of mistakes, but Ive never claimed myself to be a tradesman when Im not,

that is plain and simply fraud, maybe even a liar!?

EAWR supports me as you have yet to prove you are competent, the more you rant on the more Im convinced you are further from it.