Can a non time served (short course) person call themselves an Electrician

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I liked what i saw in that report except that they give ECS and JIB any relevance whatsoever, useless muppet cowboys just after folks money just like the scams.

 
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Guidance on regulation 16 is not very long so here is the rest of it for any that want to put stuff into context:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent

danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work.

233 The defence (regulation 29) is available in any proceedings for an offence under this regulation.

234 The object of the regulation is to ensure that people are not placed at risk due to a lack of skills on the part of themselves or others in dealing with electrical equipment.

"... prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury ..."

235 This regulation uses both of the terms,
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I do not think the application by Unite is anything to get excited about in respect of change, but what it has done is raise some points for discussion.

 
I agree Prof, but, how do you change something for the better, when it is so entwined in its roots as to be indiscernible from those policing it!

Further more, what can we replace it with?

The AM2 is nothing when it comes to heavy commercial, industrial & control systems.

"Real" apprenticeships are no more.

The EITB as I knew it is gone, the current CITB does not seem to "police" apprenticeships any more.

I have had a guy with me for a few weeks, he has gone as near as can be to an apprenticeship, NVQ2, NVQ3 "on the tools" whilst employed, AM2, 2330 L2 & L3.

He is a good guy, but his breadth and depth of knowledge is severely limited, by the training he had access to.

You can't blame him, it is the system that is at fault, again, just like Part P.

However, there is as yet no answer.

 
This paper may answer some questions as to what some are thinking.House of Commons - Communities and Local Government Committee: Written submission from Unite the Union
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A long but interesting read, but one which throws up another dilemma. It allows membership for those with both an education AND experience, but it offers no lifeline for those with a high level of experience but no, or little, formal education.

I would guess that there are thousands of electrical operatives ( ;) - don't want to fuel the debate unnecessarily) who have many years experience but few formal qualifications because, for one reason or another, were unable to follow the recognised apprenticeship path. If the suggestions of Unite were followed then it would deprive many very experienced people of the right to earn a living unless there was a way that these people could gain those qualifications.

It's all very well suggesting that they all enrol in their local college and gain their NVQ3 but, in reality, a self-employed person is already working as many hours as they can trying to earn that crust so there aren't too many hours left in the week to go back to school. If that person is employed, the employer has little to gain by funding that person through college because they won't learn anything new and the employee could probably ill-afford to go it alone.

There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?

The JIB are a waste of space in this regard, their attitude is "If you ain't got the paperwork, you can't have the ticket". They don't assess experience, it's just hours on the job. If someone spent three years making the tea (but doing nothing else) for an electrician, they get an "improver" grading. Improving what? If they can't make tea after three years, maybe they should get an office job, preferably at the JIB.

The point of this post is that their are THREE types of people out there doing electrical work (four if you count the cowboys). The time-served with some years of experience (the elite?), the short-course retrained, and the ones who couldn't pass a written exam but spent many years learning a heck of a lot more than some of the first two groups.

The only way that I can see that would be fair to all would be to undergo an independant assessment of ability by a goverment-backed assessment scheme. Nothing written, just face-to-face with an assessor for a period of time. No money-making scam providers, just a fee for the assessment, a bit like a driving test fee, and pay for a retake. A licence that can be upgraded as a person improves their knowledge and/or abililty. Each year practising adds another Brownie point etc.

Of course,it will never happen, theres too much money to be made under the current chaos.

 
The JIB are a waste of space in this regard, their attitude is "If you ain't got the paperwork, you can't have the ticket".
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the JIB[well, the ECS to be more precise] have actually changed their stance somewhat on that, and, depending on what qualifications you have they will accept 10+ years experience along with certain qualifications,

AFAIAA they have a cut off about dates when certain exams were passed though, ie, (I think) it must be the old style all-in-one 2391 or previous [etc], to negate the requirement for an NVQ3.

this is what I was told a couple of years ago anyway when they offered me a card.

 
the JIB[well, the ECS to be more precise] have actually changed their stance somewhat on that, and, depending on what qualifications you have they will accept 10+ years experience along with certain qualifications,AFAIAA they have a cut off about dates when certain exams were passed though, ie, (I think) it must be the old style all-in-one 2391 or previous [etc], to negate the requirement for an NVQ3.

this is what I was told a couple of years ago anyway when they offered me a card.
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is the "old style" 2391? My certificate says 2391-08, taken Dec 09.

 
Hi all,

Now, springcrocus says

"The only way that I can see that would be fair to all would be to undergo an independant assessment of ability by a goverment-backed assessment scheme. Nothing written, just face-to-face with an assessor for a period of time. No money-making scam providers, just a fee for the assessment, a bit like a driving test fee, and pay for a retake. A licence that can be upgraded as a person improves their knowledge and/or abililty. Each year practising adds another Brownie point etc"

Such a scheme already exists..It it the NVQ scheme. The idea of the NVQ scheme is that it does not matter how, or where, you learnt your stuff, you just have to demonstrate it all to the assessor, and you will pass.

For example, all you lot with "proper" qualifications would have to do, is to turn up at the local college, produce your certs, get a PWR [Personal work record] spend a few weeks getting it filled in, an assessor from the college would come and see you "on the job" as it were, and you would get your NVQ, simple as.....

It would be the same if you had NO QUALS AT ALL, so long as you could demonstrate that you had the underpinning knowledge as they call it, [probably, but certainly not neccessarily, by having to take C+G exams] and you filled in your PWR and the assessor was happy, then you would pass....

Now, i am not going to enter any debates about what the EAWR say, requirements for part "P" or any of that stuff at all....

Here is what i will say;

1, It is of course regrettable that "proper" apprenticeships have disappeared, of course it is.

2, There is NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that to pass "proper" C+G exams is VASTLY harder than to pass what passes for exams in an NVQ.... I know, as i have both. [Only not in electrical installation]

3, What I CAN tell you for a 100% certainty is, it would not matter if you were 3 years old and had been on a ten minute training course, if you have an NVQ, then RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, you ARE fully qualified.

I could not care what it says in the EAWR or anywhere else, I am not saying it is desirable either, BUT, the fact of the matter is, you could be in a court case that went to the house of lords if you liked, If you passed an NVQ after NO FORMAL TRAINING WHATSOEVER you will STILL be judged to be FULLY COMPETENT...

WHY???? Because this was the idea of the NVQ scheme when it was established.. The actual words they used to use were "the idea of the NVQ scheme is that you are either competent or you are not, HOW you acquired the skills and knowledge does not matter. It is a bit like driving a car, it does not matter HOW you learnt to drive, so long as you have reached the required standard to pass the test"

No matter what the HSE, the folks that wrote the EAWR, or any union, scheme provider or anyone else cares to think, if you SERIOUSLY think, that the government is going to allow the validity of the NVQ scheme, and with it, its ENTIRE "vocational" policy for the last 25 years, and the entire "vocational" education system at present to be destroyed with one court ruling you must be delusional.

If a court decided that they ONLY way you could be competent was to have done a formal apprenticeship, and that basically NVQ's were invalid, the government would simply change the law...

So to sum up.....The idea that springcrocus had is alive and well. If you are a a 5WW wonder, go to college, do an NVQ, and happy days, rightly or wrongly, you will be just as "qualified" as anyone else, and best of all, if any court [or anyone else] tried to challenge this, you would have the entire massed forces of the HM "education and industry" department and their legal bods to back you up....

Not saying this is right... Just that is the way it works.....

john...

 
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A long but interesting read, but one which throws up another dilemma. It allows membership for those with both an education AND experience, but it offers no lifeline for those with a high level of experience but no, or little, formal education.I would guess that there are thousands of electrical operatives ( ;) - don't want to fuel the debate unnecessarily) who have many years experience but few formal qualifications because, for one reason or another, were unable to follow the recognised apprenticeship path. If the suggestions of Unite were followed then it would deprive many very experienced people of the right to earn a living unless there was a way that these people could gain those qualifications.

It's all very well suggesting that they all enrol in their local college and gain their NVQ3 but, in reality, a self-employed person is already working as many hours as they can trying to earn that crust so there aren't too many hours left in the week to go back to school. If that person is employed, the employer has little to gain by funding that person through college because they won't learn anything new and the employee could probably ill-afford to go it alone.

There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?

The JIB are a waste of space in this regard, their attitude is "If you ain't got the paperwork, you can't have the ticket". They don't assess experience, it's just hours on the job. If someone spent three years making the tea (but doing nothing else) for an electrician, they get an "improver" grading. Improving what? If they can't make tea after three years, maybe they should get an office job, preferably at the JIB.

The point of this post is that their are THREE types of people out there doing electrical work (four if you count the cowboys). The time-served with some years of experience (the elite?), the short-course retrained, and the ones who couldn't pass a written exam but spent many years learning a heck of a lot more than some of the first two groups.

The only way that I can see that would be fair to all would be to undergo an independant assessment of ability by a goverment-backed assessment scheme. Nothing written, just face-to-face with an assessor for a period of time. No money-making scam providers, just a fee for the assessment, a bit like a driving test fee, and pay for a retake. A licence that can be upgraded as a person improves their knowledge and/or abililty. Each year practising adds another Brownie point etc.

Of course,it will never happen, theres too much money to be made under the current chaos.
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Which is exactly what I have already stated.

You must remember that the Scheme Operators will do ANYTHING to avoid independent third party assessments - since a very large proportion of their existing membership would fail.

The real issue must surely be : can you actually DO the job in the real world.

Why should someone have to spend 3 years at college if they already know it?

Why should some clever academic be deemed competent without having the ability to install anything?

Should be interesting ....

 
Hi Professional,

Yes, i agree totally with what you say..

The only bit i do not agree with, is the quoted bit included that states;

"There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?"

If you cannot pass an exam, [which after all, is only asking you questions that you will have to both pose for yourself, and also answer for yourself everyday] then you will never be any good...

What i mean is, if you cannot do, say, cable calcs in an exam, then it is a bit unlikely that you will be able to do them anywhere!!!!

john...

 
I have another interesting paper for the Part P guyshttp://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmcomloc/1851/1851.pdf
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I have not read it all yet, it's very long after all, but one point that stands out is contained in para 39 and shown here.

39. Emma Clancy, Chief Executive Officer of NICEIC, sought to allay these concerns. She

described the stringent monitoring of the Competent Persons Scheme:

[T]he scheme operation is monitored by UKAS, who come and do their own

inspections. They will look in detail at our complaints logs and how we are operating

our procedures and practices to make sure we adhere to that. DCLG operates the

scheme rules and gives us criteria against which we operate. We as a competent

persons scheme go out on an annual basis and check two jobs of a domestic installer.

Those jobs are picked anonymously from a list. Trained engineers employed by us

look at that work and say that it meets the standard and so on. They also do the

paperwork audits; they will make sure that the Competent Persons Scheme member

has all the appropriate insurances and so on, so in that sense it is a thorough check.60

On a personal note, I have given a list of available jobs to my assessor who has then selected those to be inspected. This does not quite compare with what Emma Clancy is stating.

I have before found it difficult to provide jobs for assessment simply because some customers don't want the extra intrusion or are unable to help.

Mrs Clancy implies that my whole customer base is available and jobs picked at random for assessment.

I will be looking hard at the NVQ route as apprentice87 has discussed. If nothing else it may get a monkey off my back.

My only concern with that, and I haven't looked yet at what it covers, is I really don't give a hoot about cable trays and ladder work. If I die still unable to do "panel wiring" I will still be a happy man. In short I'm a DI and happy with that.

 
I have not read it all yet, it's very long after all, but one point that stands out is contained in para 39 and shown here.39. Emma Clancy, Chief Executive Officer of NICEIC, sought to allay these concerns. She

described the stringent monitoring of the Competent Persons Scheme:

[T]he scheme operation is monitored by UKAS, who come and do their own

inspections. They will look in detail at our complaints logs and how we are operating

our procedures and practices to make sure we adhere to that. DCLG operates the

scheme rules and gives us criteria against which we operate. We as a competent

persons scheme go out on an annual basis and check two jobs of a domestic installer.

Those jobs are picked anonymously from a list. Trained engineers employed by us

look at that work and say that it meets the standard and so on. They also do the

paperwork audits; they will make sure that the Competent Persons Scheme member

has all the appropriate insurances and so on, so in that sense it is a thorough check.60

On a personal note, I have given a list of available jobs to my assessor who has then selected those to be inspected. This does not quite compare with what Emma Clancy is stating.

I have before found it difficult to provide jobs for assessment simply because some customers don't want the extra intrusion or are unable to help.

Mrs Clancy implies that my whole customer base is available and jobs picked at random for assessment.

I will be looking hard at the NVQ route as apprentice87 has discussed. If nothing else it may get a monkey off my back.

My only concern with that, and I haven't looked yet at what it covers, is I really don't give a hoot about cable trays and ladder work. If I die still unable to do "panel wiring" I will still be a happy man. In short I'm a DI and happy with that.
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In what way is a Scheme Operator carrying out an independent, third party assessment?

The Commons Select Committee have already stated that there is a conflict of interest arising from the fact that the registration bodies make money from assessing their own members ....

Your need to view the next section also :

40. We take some comfort from what the Minister said but we are not reassured that internal checks will uncover serious conflicts of interests. Concern has been raised about the potential conflict of interest that exists in the three approval authorities of the

Competent Person Scheme under Part P. These Scheme operators obtain their finance from the very same companies whose work they judge and they are in competition with each other. We consider that the Government needs to put stronger controls in place over the Competent Person Scheme, to show that the Scheme is serving the best interests of the safety of the public. The current arrangements need greater independent supervision to offset the pressures to compromise safety standards and actively to seek out conflicts of interest and distortions of the market.

In other words - we can`t rust you to assess your own members and we want to make sure that you don`t rig the market and put the public at risk by your dodgy internal dealing, all covered by non-disclosure agreements, of course .... ;)

Anyone would think that the Part P industry was a cartel FFS! ROTFWL

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was made at 15:18 ----------

Hi Professional,Yes, i agree totally with what you say..

The only bit i do not agree with, is the quoted bit included that states;

"There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?"

If you cannot pass an exam, [which after all, is only asking you questions that you will have to both pose for yourself, and also answer for yourself everyday] then you will never be any good...

What i mean is, if you cannot do, say, cable calcs in an exam, then it is a bit unlikely that you will be able to do them anywhere!!!!

john...
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I agree totally.

 
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In what way is a Scheme Operator carrying out an independent, third party assessment?The Commons Select Committee have already stated that there is a conflict of interest arising from the fact that the registration bodies make money from assessing their own members ....

Your need to view the next section also :

40. We take some comfort from what the Minister said but we are not reassured that internal checks will uncover serious conflicts of interests. Concern has been raised about the potential conflict of interest that exists in the three approval authorities of the

Competent Person Scheme under Part P. These Scheme operators obtain their finance from the very same companies whose work they judge and they are in competition with each other. We consider that the Government needs to put stronger controls in place over the Competent Person Scheme, to show that the Scheme is serving the best interests of the safety of the public. The current arrangements need greater independent supervision to offset the pressures to compromise safety standards and actively to seek out conflicts of interest and distortions of the market.

In other words - we can`t rust you to assess your own members and we want to make sure that you don`t rig the market and put the public at risk by your dodgy internal dealing, all covered by non-disclosure agreements, of course .... ;)

Anyone would think that the Part P industry was a cartel FFS! ROTFWL
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I agree with you prof.

Whilst many will feel I'm the one who benefits most from the current set up I still feel it is inadequate and would wish to see it changed.

As it stands many people have a deep seated hatred for me and all others who have not completed a full apprenticeship. I stop short of calling my self a 5WW. That is not how I got into this industry.

If I was able to demonstrate my competency in a way that stood up to scrutiny in the industry it might (?) keep people off my back.

 
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the "old style" 2391? My certificate says 2391-08, taken Dec 09.
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could be, they werent too specific with me, AFAIAA mine simply says 2391 :| they probably meant before it got split into -10 and -20 ,

I dunno if mine has any numbers like -08 or not, I'll look in a bit once canoe has got it photoshopped for me, ;)

What I CAN tell you for a 100% certainty is, it would not matter if you were 3 years old and had been on a ten minute training course, if you have an NVQ, then RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, you ARE fully qualified.

I could not care what it says in the EAWR or anywhere else, I am not saying it is desirable either, BUT, the fact of the matter is, you could be in a court case that went to the house of lords if you liked, If you passed an NVQ after NO FORMAL TRAINING WHATSOEVER you will STILL be judged to be FULLY COMPETENT...
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it has always been my understanding that in a court of law you would be judged by your peers, not by the bits of paper you have, this is why people lose their licences for bad driving.

"There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?"
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I'll bring me own sleeping bag. :|

as an addition,

safedepth, Im in no way having a go at your personally, I dont know you well enough to either like or dislike you,

but, you seem to be the one fighting this battle for all the guys that have done the short course route,

I have met a few [by a few I mean less than a handful] of short course folks that are competent at what they do,

I have met literally dozens of guys that really havent got a clue, Im even talking about domestic here,

yes, I have met time served ones that are useless as well, and work on a 'well its always been like that attitude' and have no idea about cable calcs etc.

this is not a personal crusade against anyone, not for my part anyway, but I suppose Im just fed up with the whole shebang!

 
Hi Steps,

"it has always been my understanding that in a court of law you would be judged by your peers, not by the bits of paper you have, this is why people lose their licences for bad driving"

Good point there mate!!!!

I think that the only way that any of this is going to be solved is by the following;

1, Scrap part P

2, Abolish the schemes

3, Make it a criminal offence to do any electrical installation unless you have an NVQ

4, People with "proper" qualifications, [Like Steps!!!] should merely be able to turn up at the local tech and AUTOMATICALLY be given an NVQ, free of charge, without having to jump through hoops or any of the nonsense that they would have to do now.

Only proper solution to the whole lot though, would be to bring back the "proper" apprenticeship system, but we all know that will never happen..

Finally, as for the quote Steps included "There is also the case that some people are very clever practically, but the pits when it comes to writing things down. For these people, passing an exam is almost impossible. Do they get thrown on the scrap heap?"

Followed by "I'll bring me own sleeping bag"

Dear me, I think we ALL know that never mind passing exams, people like our Steps should be writing them!!!

john..

 

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