Can a non time served (short course) person call themselves an Electrician

[steptoe]

"it has always been my understanding that in a court of law you would be judged by your peers, not by the bits of paper you have, this is why people lose their licences for bad driving"Good point there mate!!!!

shall I tell you a very little know fact,

one of the greatest motorcycle racers this world has ever known had no motorcycle licence until he was 'knocking on a bit' shall we say.

now, just because you are amazingly good at something in a certain scenario, doesnt mean it is legal for you to do the same thing in different scenarios,

although that guy was fast, safe, and very experienced at riding a motorcycle, he wasnt allowed to do it on a road open to the public as he didnt have a piece of paper to say he could,

he still had to pass his bike test, just what the examiner was thinking is beyond me..........

 

[revjames]

So regarding thread title - is there a consensus?

I think unless you have a framed copy of your indentures on your lounge wall youre no sparky - but I'm biased!

 

[NozSpark]

How did you know that I've got mine on my living room wall???? You been spying on me again ; )

I bet you don't know what they say though?

BTW I don't have them in my wall,,, in fact I don't have any of my qualifications or anything like that on the wall

 

[Sidewinder]

I don't have my indentures up but I do have my 1st & Masters degree certs & my EngC IEng cert up, but, it was NOT my idea, blame Mrs SW for that one!

My indentures were a 6 page document in Foolscap size, not A4, so no frames.

There is even a picture of me in my MEng hood taken on my graduation day up somewhere, again, not my idea!

However, I can remember the day of my MEng Grad ceremony in Cardiff, it was the day of the last FA cup match held at the Millenium Staduim, before the "New" Wembley opened.

What I can't remember is the day or date!!!

As an aside, as I was indentured, I was not allowed to take part in any industrial action, thus had to work through 2 full strikes, amongst work to rules etc.!

Getting called a scab at the age of 17 was a shock especially as the works union convenor had come around us all and told us we HAD to go to work regardless.

It took him to placate the massed hoards in the end.

Scary.

 

[unphased]

This is another aspect of the trade that stinks. So many indentured or apprentice trained electricians think they alone own the rights to be recognised as an electrician. Some people in life are capable of making it in a different way. It would be far more constructive of the self-opinionated ones (hence the thread I started on this) to look after themselves, get on with their own lives, and stop trying to inhibit, dictate to or otherwise undermine those who have had a diferent start in the industry. To answer the thread question, non-time served can call themselves an electrician provided they have qualifications to back them up. I would say minimum C&G 236 part 1 and part 2 and 17th edition. C&G2391 would be preferable. Attending a short course alone will not entitle the person to call themselves an electrician. It is no use bitching among yourselves about the apparent 5WW or 5DW in the industry because only the governing bodies can ultimately sort it out. All we can do is do what we do to the best of our ability and let everyone else do what they want to do. Caveat Emptor. I find the attack on jameseye12 quite astonishing. It is none of your business to question the guy in this manner. I am surprised he didn;t retaliate in a more deserving manor. Nobody is going to disctate to me what I can or can't call myself. Nobody elses business.

 

[Manator]

The links that I posted are important documents that all interested parties should read, it explains what is actually happening on a day to day basis. You can see from the select committee reports, they slammed both the government and the scheme providers alike. Further investigations are to be carried out and another appraisal has been outlined for 2013.

Part P will not be diluted and will stay in its present form unless the government can prove that any dilution will not effect the current safety standards.

As for assessments investigations and indeed changes are bound to happen over the next few years, Unite has already applied for independent assessments to become the norm, and the need to categorise all electricians.

Proof of competency will never be possible in a forum, and will not really be questioned in your line of work, but will be questioned should anything happen that leads not only yourself but the client in court.

 

[steptoe]

This is another aspect of the trade that stinks. So many indentured or apprentice trained electricians think they alone own the rights to be recognised as an electrician. Some people in life are capable of making it in a different way. It would be far more constructive of the self-opinionated ones (hence the thread I started on this) to look after themselves, get on with their own lives, and stop trying to inhibit, dictate to or otherwise undermine those who have had a diferent start in the industry. To answer the thread question, non-time served can call themselves an electrician provided they have qualifications to back them up. I would say minimum C&G 236 part 1 and part 2 and 17th edition. C&G2391 would be preferable. Attending a short course alone will not entitle the person to call themselves an electrician. It is no use bitching among yourselves about the apparent 5WW or 5DW in the industry because only the governing bodies can ultimately sort it out. All we can do is do what we do to the best of our ability and let everyone else do what they want to do. Caveat Emptor. I find the attack on jameseye12 quite astonishing. It is none of your business to question the guy in this manner. I am surprised he didn;t retaliate in a more deserving manor. Nobody is going to disctate to me what I can or can't call myself. Nobody elses business.

I disagree,

I think the lack of customers would soon put a stop to it if all the 5WW and other short course folks were actually upfront and told them they had 'qualified' as an 'electrician' by going to school for 5 weeks and that was all,

they were actually going to gain their experience by trial and error at each job they got, and hopefully they would get it ok before anybody got killed.!

 

[jameseye12]

I feel like we're going round in circles here :shakehead

 

[steptoe]

I think the short course guys are very economical with the actual facts & truth to their customers

 

[jameseye12]

You think a lot of things, doesn't make them true though

 

[revjames]

I don't have my indentures up but I do have my 1st & Masters degree certs & my EngC IEng cert up, but, it was NOT my idea, blame Mrs SW for that one!My indentures were a 6 page document in Foolscap size, not A4, so no frames.

There is even a picture of me in my MEng hood taken on my graduation day up somewhere, again, not my idea!

However, I can remember the day of my MEng Grad ceremony in Cardiff, it was the day of the last FA cup match held at the Millenium Staduim, before the "New" Wembley opened.

What I can't remember is the day or date!!!

As an aside, as I was indentured, I was not allowed to take part in any industrial action, thus had to work through 2 full strikes, amongst work to rules etc.!

Getting called a scab at the age of 17 was a shock especially as the works union convenor had come around us all and told us we HAD to go to work regardless.

It took him to placate the massed hoards in the end.

Scary.

Sorry mate no indentures = 5WW

 

[steptoe]

You think a lot of things, doesn't make them true though

it doesnt, but I do know that I would be able to prove my competence much easier, even if I had NO papers, than a 5WW would be able to do it with a library full of papers.

 

[Manator]

Sorry mate no indentures = 5WW

My dentures are broke, need to get them fixed so I can chew again.

 

[jameseye12]

it doesnt, but I do know that I would be able to prove my competence much easier, even if I had NO papers, than a 5WW would be able to do it with a library full of papers.

Good for you.

 

[Sidewinder]

Sorry mate no indentures = 5WW

I never said I did not have them, just that they won't fit in the bosses frames!

It has no affect on me at all, however, the 5WW courses were designed for experienced "sparks" with no formal qualifications to "retrain" or those in associated areas to achieve installation qualifications, it seems that the training industry has distorted the situation not the "punters".

I actually proof read some of the NVQ's when they were originally instigated, so I am familiar with the requirements.

TBH, I feel that with the training, qualifications and experience, that Safedepth has had in his engineering training to date, that one of these courses supplemented by a few others in associated topics and some mentoring could be suitable.

At least he would have more idea of the underlying principles, engineering science and underpinning knowledge than say another who has never worked in any engineering field, perhaps a chef, or accountant, no slur meant to either, just the first two non-engineering occupations that popped into my head.

 

[steptoe]

At least he would have more idea of the underlying principles, engineering science and underpinning knowledge than say another who has never worked in any engineering field, perhaps a chef, or accountant, no slur meant to either, just the first two non-engineering occupations that popped into my head.

this is exactly my point, anyone can be a spark in 5 weeks, maybe even 5 days,

I dont know about anyone else, but my missus has enough gumption to pass a 2382 on the first attempt I would hazard,

as for the rest of it, i dont see much difference, but never while her ar5e has a hole in it will she ever be an electrician, shes just not cut out for it, but a lot of people seem to be saying if she was like them and sooo Fk'ing stoopid that she would give someone a few grand then she too could become an electrician!

come on, if you are stupid enough to think doing a course like that makes you a spark, then all hope may be lost for you.

 

[Sidewinder]

Steps,

I think you have missed my point mate, or perhaps not.

Take SafeDepth, he was a "spark" in a different field, so he was not learning from scratch, he had a good level of engineering knowledge, much of which would not be taught on a modern apprenticeship & 2330, however, it would be relevant.

The 5W Courses were never meant to make a spark in 5 weeks, they were meant to re-skill existing qualified people in associated areas, or those who had been doing the job for years with no qualifications.

The 5WW courses were never designed to "make" a spark out of someone with no associated knowledge, skills, experience and qualifications in 5 weeks.

e.g. your accountant or chef.

They were designed for say a control systems spark who had not done any domestic since his apprenticeship 20 years ago, or a "mate" who had been working as a spark for 20 years with no formal qualifications.

It is the system, not the individual that is at fault, really, just like Part P!

 

[revjames]

In that case there should be a minimum entry criteria but then they woulndnt make much

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Back to post #1. Only a JIB time served apprentice can call themselves an 'Approved electrician'

 

[NozSpark]

Back to post #1. Only a JIB time served apprentice can call themselves an 'Approved electrician'

and wether they are any good or not isn't guaranteed