Do I need a new consumer unit?

[mort2376]

If you've ever seen what a lightning strike does to a house, I seriously doubt a SPD will help much

Probably, but if you have one fitted they can't use it against you. Ie you took all reasonable precautions

 

[Murdoch]

A few years ago a lightning strike hit a Virgin media cabinet locally ….. and took out many routers and tv’s

SPDs on the incoming mains wouldn’t have helped at all

SPD‘s are simply part of the stitch up between jpel and the manufacturers to add changes to the regs to justify amendments and line the pockets of the manufacturers.

in the OP’s case, he has RCD protection on all circuits and that’s enough for a sensible spark to crack on with additions / changes

 

[Fleeting]

A few years ago a lightning strike hit a Virgin media cabinet locally ….. and took out many routers and tv’s

SPDs on the incoming mains wouldn’t have helped at all

SPD‘s are simply part of the stitch up between jpel and the manufacturers to add changes to the regs to justify amendments and line the pockets of the manufacturers.

in the OP’s case, he has RCD protection on all circuits and that’s enough for a sensible spark to crack on with additions / changes

Type AC at that.

 

[Murdoch]

Type AC at that.

So what?

Customers really do think we are ripping them off already

 

[Fleeting]

So what?

Customers really do think we are ripping them off already

The fact of the matter is they would not be considered suitable that's what. Moaning about the scribes who put together BS7671 really doesn't help. It wasn't so long ago additional RCD protection wasn't so prevalent as it is now but you put it in place without too much thought.

 

[Murdoch]

The fact of the matter is they would not be considered suitable that's what. Moaning about the scribes who put together BS7671 really doesn't help. It wasn't so long ago additional RCD protection wasn't so prevalent as it is now but you put it in place without too much thought.

public moaning is perfect. i wouldn’t mind so much if they got the books accurate first time, but they don’t.

its all BS and no wonder so many sparks aren’t up to date ……

it’s pointless moaning at the CPSs as they don’t give a f either

less than 12 months before I gave wave all this nonsense good bye

 

[Bruspark]

He's already decided how much he want to charge you but hasn't quite worked out how to justify it

 

[johnb2713]

Can I just say (Sorry it's slightly off topic), that this sort of thread with the knowledge and experience shared by the likes of Fleeting, Murdoch, Binky, Kerching, Special Location, Mort2367 and UNG is priceless. What a wealth of knowledge you guys have accrued, I take my hat off to you all. Well done, if you were local to me i'd buy you a drink (happily youre not though )

 

[UNG]

If you've ever seen what a lightning strike does to a house, I seriously doubt a SPD will help much

I've seen the first hand the damage a lightning strike caused in a hospital 20 odd years ago
The final bill for the repairs was just over £500K
We had the contract for the intruder alarms at the time the on call engineer was on site about 5am Sunday morning after doing 3 other call outs I got called at 8:30 to sort couple of other call outs and then went to site with all the spares we had in stock, at 17:30 I sent the on call engineer home and I completed the repairs I could by 10pm and went home the following morning it was onto the alarm suppliers to get the bits ordered to replenish our stock and some bits needed to finalise the repairs, our invoice ended up at circa £11K

In the aftermath one of the hospital engineers was tasked with doing a risk assessment of the possible frequency of a lightning strike and the cost of putting surge protection equipment. Depending which factors and modelling was used the strike risk came out at once in 4 years or 44 years or 400 years and the surge protection needed was going to cost in the order of £600K the final decision was based the fact that there was no recorded evidence that a strike had occurred in the previous 60 years so it was decided that it was not worth the capital cost on something that may not happen for another 60 or more years

Having seen so often the fit an SPD and just from this thread alone the expectations of the performance of an SPD does anybody actually understand the limitations of what they are fitting given the different types of SPD available. A little bit of reading https://www.surgedevices.co.uk/2346-2/ quite simply explains SPD's and a type 1+2+3 SPD for single phase starts at around £250 for the basic lighning protection level carry on to level 1 and you are significantly adding to the cost of a board change. So how many are misselling type 2 SPD's as protecting against lightning strikes

 

[UNG]

Can I just say (Sorry it's slightly off topic), that this sort of thread with the knowledge and experience shared by the likes of Fleeting, Murdoch, Binky, Kerching, Special Location, Mort2367 and UNG is priceless. What a wealth of knowledge you guys have accrued, I take my hat off to you all. Well done, if you were local to me i'd buy you a drink (happily youre not though )

Did somebody mention beer I could be local in a couple of hours

 

[UNG]

Probably, but if you have one fitted they can't use it against you. Ie you took all reasonable precautions

But using that argument what if you don't have the right one fitted have you taken reasonable precautions then
I doubt most electricians even give a thought to what SPD is needed for a given installation as it is more likely what the wholesaler has on the shelf

 

[NozSpark]

Having seen so often the fit an SPD and just from this thread alone the expectations of the performance of an SPD does anybody actually understand the limitations of what they are fitting given the different types of SPD available. A little bit of reading https://www.surgedevices.co.uk/2346-2/ quite simply explains SPD's and a type 1+2+3 SPD for single phase starts at around £250 for the basic lighning protection level carry on to level 1 and you are significantly adding to the cost of a board change. So how many are misselling type 2 SPD's as protecting against lightning strikes

The funny thing is,,,, I’m fitting a T1,2,3 SPD tomorrow,,,, I got that surge one for just under £150 inc VAT…… still expensive compared to a standard T2

 

[mort2376]

We all assume that we fit them for lightening strikes, when the domestic ones fitted by manufacturers in consumer units are not for that.

Lightening protection is a specialist thing. The basic type 2 fitted by manufacturers gives some protection against surges from the network.

I think we got hung up on the original risk assessment that mentioned strikes as part of its formula.

We are trying to give the consumer some protection against a constantly outdated and failing network infrastructure.

That is all as mere electricians we can do.

@johnb2713 thanks for the beer. You are right there is a wealth of knowledge on here and I as I did on this topic today am more than happy to learn something new from others.

Everyday can be a schoolday.

 

[UNG]

The funny thing is,,,, I’m fitting a T1,2,3 SPD tomorrow,,,, I got that surge one for just under £150 inc VAT…… still expensive compared to a standard T2

But what LPL is it providing

 

[Andy™]

We are trying to give the consumer some protection against a constantly outdated and failing network infrastructure.

you mean DNO are passing their responsibility onto us again, just like they are wanting us to use earth rods because they can't maintain their network. sounds about right

 

[binky]

But what LPL is it providing

We all assume that we fit them for lightening strikes, when the domestic ones fitted by manufacturers in consumer units are not for that.

Lightening protection is a specialist thing. The basic type 2 fitted by manufacturers gives some protection against surges from the network.

I think we got hung up on the original risk assessment that mentioned strikes as part of its formula.

We are trying to give the consumer some protection against a constantly outdated and failing network infrastructure.

That is all as mere electricians we can do.

@johnb2713 thanks for the beer. You are right there is a wealth of knowledge on here and I as I did on this topic today am more than happy to learn something new from others.

Everyday can be a schoolday.

You can't actually protect against a direct lightning strike, only surges in the network from strikes near a property. The infrastructure has been naff for years, but you don't see lots of failed appliances, which makes me wonder how necessary they are.

The only time I've recommended fitting SPD was due to the likelihood of a pole transformer failing. The farmer next door had illegally installed a solar array that was overloading it.

 

[MikeJhn]

True,but they will have slipper something in in the small print that no one reads that means your not covered without one.

Any excuse not to pay out.

If you don't read the contract you have with your insurance company how is it their fault?

Insurance companies can only refuse to pay out if there is fraud involved, either in the application for insurance or a false claim, they can however reduce any claim due to being under insured, you have a contract with the insurance company that they can not wiggle out of, most reputable insurance companies don't even try, but will employ an assessors/specialist to verify the claim if they feel the claim is dubious I worked with the Insurance Ombudsman on many claims and not one was ever not paid.

 

[johnb2713]

If you don't read the contract you have with your insurance company how is it their fault?

By hiding such things in small print, it's obvious at times they dont want to draw you attention to their get-out clauses.

Insurance companies can only refuse to pay out if there is fraud involved, either in the application for insurance or a false claim,

and they can and do try it on. We had a car fire resulting in a right off, I had declared the value at what we paid £7,500. The insurance company offer was £6200 'book price', I argued with them, in the end summoned them to small claims court. They showed the judge glasses guide for price which was correct, I argued that a) I couldn't buy at that price anywhere and b) they accepted my submitted valuation. The judge ruled they had 7 days to find me a car or they and to cough up. I received their payment of £7500 on the 7th day.

they can however reduce any claim due to being under insured

Have you noticed how this is a one way street, if you over insured, they still wouldnt pay extra.

you have a contract with the insurance company that they can not wiggle out of, most reputable insurance companies don't even try

Oh they definitely do, you're naïve to suggest they dont.

, but will employ an assessors/specialist to verify the claim if they feel the claim is dubious I worked with the Insurance Ombudsman on many claims and not one was ever not paid.

If you worked with the ombudsman on claims not being paid, surely that was as a result of customer referring a matter to the ombudsman of an insurance company not paying?
A few years ago we had a major flood in our home which we involved the insurance company from the start. They sent out a loss adjuster, when he turned up his opening gambit was 'Remember I'm on your side'. My response was 'quit the ********, straight talking is what we need and guess who is paying your wages. Youre here to reduce the claim and I'm going to make sure you dont.'
We started again and over the next 2 days went over the claim in detail, the end result was no change in the projected claim value £83,000!

 

[MikeJhn]

Your last paragraph vindicates my previous post.

 

[apprentice87]

If you don't read the contract you have with your insurance company how is it their fault?

Insurance companies can only refuse to pay out if there is fraud involved, either in the application for insurance or a false claim, they can however reduce any claim due to being under insured, you have a contract with the insurance company that they can not wiggle out of, most reputable insurance companies don't even try, but will employ an assessors/specialist to verify the claim if they feel the claim is dubious I worked with the Insurance Ombudsman on many claims and not one was ever not paid.

Yes, but why did they get as far as the ombudsman before being paid?

john..