EICR Query on C2 classifications please

[Ian M]

Sorry quality isn't great and it seems to be limited resolution I can upload

Sorry quality isn't great and it seems to be limited resolution I can upload

 

[Doc Hudson]

An EICR should just be an inspection & test of the current condition of an installation. Unless previously agreed, no remedial or alteration work should be undertaken. So unless you had authorised it, the original RCD, (Good or Faulty) should have been left in place. And if removed, it should have an equivalent item fitted in its place. Same as with your car at a garage for an MOT, they need you to authorise removal/replacement of any parts. It does sound like someone with limited ability, on commission pushing for 'extras'

Doc H.  

 

[Ian M]

Thanks for the advice , I have spoken to the "area quality engineer" who appreciated my points on the EICR and has agreed to re quote to reinstate the RCD and fit a RCBO to give the protection in the bathroom - I will advise on developments !

 

[Murdoch]

Thanks for the advice , I have spoken to the "area quality engineer" who appreciated my points on the EICR and has agreed to re quote to reinstate the RCD and fit a RCBO to give the protection in the bathroom - I will advise on developments !

And once you have this quote - ask for a couple from sparks local to the house - remember most self employed electricians will not be charging VAT on their services ...

 

[Ian M]

I have asked an independent to quote too . I'll avoid using this franchise in future - their website is very encouraging about the earning potential should you join them ........

 

[kerching]

Usually....franchise= bloke at top raking it in= everyone below him working their plums off to provide him with a nice lifestyle, being paid almost minimum wage and basically working off commission .....obviously only my opinion and others may come along with their ( wrong) opinions

 

[Ian M]

Usually....franchise= bloke at top raking it in= everyone below him working their plums off to provide him with a nice lifestyle, being paid almost minimum wage and basically working off commission .....obviously only my opinion and others may come along with their ( wrong) opinions

Think that probably explains the "issue" , commission on a new CU much better than fitting a RCD......

 

[Evans Electric]

Usually....franchise= bloke at top raking it in= everyone below him working their plums off to provide him with a nice lifestyle, being paid almost minimum wage and basically working off commission .....obviously only my opinion and others may come along with their ( wrong) opinions

Agree with Kerch's  post .      Mr. Franchise earning fortunes for a load of suits sitting in an office  who have never done any electrical work in their lives .  

When he  says  the RCD wouldn't reset  , that implies  that half the circuits in the house were dead  before he arrived .    Did he show any test results for the "faulty"  RCD  I wonder ,  as usually the first check is to switch off all the breakers & put them back one at a time ...looking for a  circuit that might be knocking the RCD out .   

When our Regs change , which is becoming a regular  happening  these days  ,  there is no requirement for the whole country to have re-wires , new boards  etc etc . 

The bloke was fishing for extra work  to my mind   AND   he should not have left the board without the RCD  which , allegedly , possibly , may not be faulty at all  but its disappeared now into the back of his van .      

Theres a bad feeling about this ,  I feel you've been scammed for extra money .    Most guys on here , including me ,  would do what it says on the tin ,    carry out the  EICR  , give you the report ,  pointing  out any problems or dangers .    Then its up to you  , like an MOT  ,   if "Unsatisfactory"    obtain a quote  for whatever needs doing .       

 

[Ian M]

Despite no data on any RCD test , supposedly the RCD "failed when it was tested" "and would not have been providing any protection" , I am not sure what was going on but I suspect a heady mix of incompetence and ambition for commission were involved .

I did speak to the "area quality manager" who was only slightly defensive and agreed that just removing the  "failed" RCD with no schedule to replace it was less than ideal !

As I said I'm a Mechanical engineer and maybe a lot of owners would have bowed to his "expertise" but to me it just didn't make sense and with the EICR including various other "anomolies" it put me on my guard .

Frustrating as I guess its the £200 odd down the drain and I'll have to find someone else who knows what they are doing . I appreciate everyone's responses and its pleasing that they all back up my feelings about the whole thing . Thanks again .

 

[Geoff1946]

That RCD, faulty or otherwise is your property and should not have been removed  without your consent. . I would demand its return. If they claim its been destroyed you are entitled to a replacement.

 

[Andy™]

And once you have this quote - ask for a couple from sparks local to the house - remember most self employed electricians will not be charging VAT on their services ...

many like myself will be charging VAT as im VAT registered. doesnt mean im trying to rip off anyone. you are also missing a bit part of regardless of VAT or NOT VAT regsitered, you will still be paying VAT on materials, just itll be paid via the wholesaler instead of the company / person doing work

 

[kerching]

In brief I think you have been the victim of theft!

seriously!...you have had your property removed without authority

 

[Doc Hudson]

I did speak to the "area quality manager" who was only slightly defensive and agreed that just removing the  "failed" RCD with no schedule to replace it was less than ideal !

Removing any components from an installation is not part of an EICR as defined by BS7671 wiring regulations. Its purpose is to establish if an installation is satisfactory for continued use. Any anomalies are noted on the report and passed back to the person ordering the inspection. If something is noted as being an immediate danger to people property or livestock, (e.g. exposed live parts), then a circuit should be safely isolated to prevent danger. But everything else should be left untouched and unaltered, unless otherwise agreed.

Did you sign any form of contract allowing them to removed your property at their discretion without further authorisation from you? If not, then I would be sending them a bill for re-instating the components that they have stolen from your property, as you should be entitled to have a second opinion of the RCD's operation. But as they have now removed it and possibly tampered with it you cant!. it sounds to me like a scam to get additional money from unsuspecting property owners. I have seen similar scams of the TV with boiler repairs, claim a part is faulty, remove it before any second opinion can be sought, charge customer a big bill! I wonder how often they have used this arrangement in the past?

The most common type of RCD failure in my opinion is that it fails to operate automatically during a fault. i.e. It basically reverts back to just being a manual switch, which is what I suspect they have left in the place of your alleged fault RCD, just a manual switch. Ask them for a refund due to their negligence or you will pursue it with trading standards as you consider they have not worked within the remit of the agreed contract for the works you requested they carry out.

Doc H.

 

[ProDave]

Re the removed RCD

My guess is he tested it, it tripped, but then would not reset.  And I guess he did not have a compatible spare.

I would in that situation have replaced it with another main switch or bypassed it in order not to leave the client without power to half the circuits, but with a commitment to return as soon as I could source one, with a replacement RCD. 

The issue is more that the proposed solution to the C2's was a new CU at an extortionate price, rather than just replace the failed rcd, and fit an rcbo for the bathroom circuits.

 

[Murdoch]

many like myself will be charging VAT as im VAT registered. doesnt mean im trying to rip off anyone. you are also missing a bit part of regardless of VAT or NOT VAT regsitered, you will still be paying VAT on materials, just itll be paid via the wholesaler instead of the company / person doing work

I did say “on their services”

 

[Sharpend]

I would be writing a letter to their CEO, explain the way the EICR was carried out then the removal of equipment belonging to you. I would then suggest that you do not accuse them of being a scam at this stage as they will then build a defence to contra, I would however state that you require the RCD to be returned in its original condition or a suitable replacement so that you can seek a second opinion following what appears to be a breach of the essence of an EICR- report only,  with remedial only carried out upon agreeable contract of works. At no point should the installation be left in a worse condition than it was prior to the EICR, you could argue that the consumer unit no longer meets the IP minimum rating as there is a large hole where the RCD used to be. You could also apply the reg relating to no longer compliant with manufacturers instructions. 
Give them 7 days to respond with a suitable resolution, failure will result in you taking furthe action against them. 
 

in the meantime do your research and get details of all trade associations they are registered with and prepare a letter to copy to each should they fail to resolve the issue wIthin your 7 days request. 

 

[Risteard]

When he  says  the RCD wouldn't reset  , that implies  that half the circuits in the house were dead  before he arrived .

I disagree. It reads to me that the RCCB failed probably as a result of testing, i.e. there was a faulty device which was offering no protection and once it was tripped it wouldn't reset.

However in these circumstances I certainly wouldn't have removed it. I would have contacted the letting agent or whoever and sought permission to replace it. Without permission I would have left it in place with the affected circuits de-energised. (Whether it was a readily available replacement or not we simply do not know.)

 

[Risteard]

I would in that situation have replaced it with another main switch or bypassed it in order not to leave the client without power to half the circuits, but with a commitment to return as soon as I could source one, with a replacement RCD.

How would you justify removing a device intended to protect human life? How can you guarantee that an Earth fault won't occur between removal and replacement? It's certainly not an approach that I would adopt.

 

[ProDave]

How would you justify removing a device intended to protect human life? How can you guarantee that an Earth fault won't occur between removal and replacement? It's certainly not an approach that I would adopt.

The situation I was trying to describe is you had tested the rcd, it tripped, but then would not reset,  That is what I suspect happened in this case.

So what do you do if you don't have a replacement to put in?

Leave the customer without power on most of their circuits while yo go and try and get one?

Or offer them the choice of removing the faulty rcd to restore power while you go and find a replacement?

The spark in the OP apears to have removed the rcd with no commitment to go and replace it with a new one as quick as possible.  THAT seems unacceptable.

If none of those are acceptable then the only conclusion is you must have a suitable replacement with you for every rcd that you test, in case it won't reset,  How many of us can say we check we have a suitable replacement before testing an rcd?

 

[Murdoch]

How many of us can say we check we have a suitable replacement before testing an rcd?

very few IMHO ........ however when I'm doing a CU change I always have spare RCBO's with me (haven't fitted a dual RCD board for over 3 years now)