Electrical socket metal boxes too deep??

[JimmyJ]

Hi there any advice greatly appreciated,

I recently purchased my first house. A 1928 built end terrace. I am a complete novice regarding home improvements is the first thing to say, so sorry if I don't know all the correct names of things!

I selected an electrician through a "trusted trader" website affiliated with a government website. I wished for 6 sockets to have their positions moved.

When the sockets were fitted the metal box part of the sockets were very deep in the wall and not in any way level. The metal box part of the sockets were anything from 4mm to 20mm deep in the wall. They were not level in the vertical or horizontal plane or flush with the existing plaster.

The electrician also attempted to place a flush socket in a lathe and plaster wall and left me with a massive hole between two rooms which he crudely filled with concrete and bricks.

The electrician has assured me that there will not be a problem with plastering around these sunken metal boxes or fixing the front plates to the wall, as he can use long screws to attach the frontplates to the deep metal boxes.

Is this common practice, is this even safe to have a large gap 2cm or more between the metal boxes and the front plates? I have had 3 plasterers out and they all say that the metal boxes should be level and flush with the existing plaster and that he should not have attempted to put a flush socket in a lathe and plaster wall!

Thanks, any advice greatly appreciated,

Jimmy

 

[batty]

I quite often have sockets and switches deeper in the wall. That is what the longer screws are for. Plasterers will tell you they should be flush because it makes there life easier. As for the lathe and plaster sounds like he has made a mess with that. You could cut a bit of the lathe and plaster out and fit a bit of plasterboard. Maybe get him back to sort it out.

 

[NozSpark]

TBH it sounds like your installer has very low standards of work.

Although there is generally nothing wrong with having backboxes deeper in than the plaster he should have at least attempted to have them all level. As for the box in the lathe and plaster wall, I just don't understand why he didn't use a dry line box :shakehead

 

[steptoe]

In an ideal world the box should be very close to flush with the plaster, but is normally slightly recessed, 20mm sounds excessive, long screws are for a different purpose altogether rather than for pulling a poor spark out of a hole, so to speak.

Flush boxes can be fitted on large and plaster walls effectively under most circumstances if the correct methods are used, although sometimes damage is inevetible, especially surrounding it, but not normally on the other side.

Sorry my reply isnt too detailed, on my phone and its a pain.

 

[OnOff]

The instructions for some "designer" flat plate sockets actually say to set the boxes back by 5mm from the wall. It's a case of what you lose off the front has to go somewhere! Long screw are useful at some refurbs where because of cr@p walls they have been dot and dabbed with plasterboards stuck to existing walls - this automatically makes the existing boxes sit back further.

 

[batty]

I hate it when that happens the builders forget to tell the sparks they are being dot and dabbed as the sparks really don't need to know this.

 

[ProDave]

Re the lath and plaster wall.

He should have advised you first that cutting ANY hole in a lath and plaster wall is very risky.

These walls are very old, and the old lime plaster used will be as try as a bone and very very crumbly.

It's nigh on impossible to cut a nice square hole and even harder to get a dry lining box to fit, there's simply nothing for them to clip into.

It usually ends up in a patch needing re plastering after you have cut a hole and found a way to secure the back box.

Unless you are doing a full refurbishment, I recommend surface fittings for lath and plaster walls.

Your electrician should have talked to you about the options of different ways of doing the job, and explained the potential problems (great chunks of plaster falling off) and allowed you to make an informed decision. The fact he didn't suggests his communication skills are not too good either.

 

[benji]

I thought the reason boxes had to be flush with face of wall was for fire rating

 

[Doc Hudson]

I thought the reason boxes had to be flush with face of wall was for fire rating

Fire rating is one of these mythical areas that keeps cropping up on forums, implying that everything electrical must be fire rated. It was discussed in a recent thread on here. For clarification purposes you may want to consider thousands of domestic light fittings that have a domed section that mounts against the ceiling, The electrical connections are made in this dome section and the enclosure to protect the joints is half the ceiling plaster board and half the dome part of the light fitting. Section 526 offerers guidance on electrical connections and in there you will find the comments about "Enclosures partially or completely formed with building material which is non combustible when tested to BS 476-4" Typical plasterboard ceilings are considered to give up to 30mins fire barrier when fitted between floors, as such plaster walls will offer no less protection. That is notwithstanding the point that most domestic dwellings are a single fire compartment anyway unless they also have an integral garage. I would hazard a guess that brickwork, masonry & plaster is actually more fire resistant than some of the plastic dry-line or surface patress enclosures?

Doc H.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was made at 13:32 ----------

Hi there any advice greatly appreciated,I recently purchased my first house. A 1928 built end terrace. I am a complete novice regarding home improvements is the first thing to say, so sorry if I don't know all the correct names of things!

I selected an electrician through a "trusted trader" website affiliated with a government website. I wished for 6 sockets to have their positions moved.

When the sockets were fitted the metal box part of the sockets were very deep in the wall and not in any way level. The metal box part of the sockets were anything from 4mm to 20mm deep in the wall. They were not level in the vertical or horizontal plane or flush with the existing plaster.

The electrician also attempted to place a flush socket in a lathe and plaster wall and left me with a massive hole between two rooms which he crudely filled with concrete and bricks.

The electrician has assured me that there will not be a problem with plastering around these sunken metal boxes or fixing the front plates to the wall, as he can use long screws to attach the frontplates to the deep metal boxes.

Is this common practice, is this even safe to have a large gap 2cm or more between the metal boxes and the front plates? I have had 3 plasterers out and they all say that the metal boxes should be level and flush with the existing plaster and that he should not have attempted to put a flush socket in a lathe and plaster wall!

Thanks, any advice greatly appreciated,

Jimmy

Welcome to the forum, Have you complained to the trusted trader site that you obtained the contact details from? Although your chosen electrician looks to be rather inexperienced and un professional in his standard of workmanship, I would not ever consider taking electrical installation advice from a plasterer. They generally know even less and typically pass on half truth here-say comments they heard off the builder. There is no regulation stating that an accessory mounting box has to come flush with the finished plaster. On most new build work this would be impossible to achieve as the back boxes are all secured during first fix and the electrician has no way of knowing how deep the plasterer will fit the boards/base coat or finish coat of plaster. All metal back boxes have one adjustable lug to allow for leveling of the final accessory when second fixing This is needed to compensate for some very uneven wall surfaces. However there is no excuse for a competent electrician being unable to get all his boxes approximately level within a few 'mm' of each other. And it is possible to put flush boxes into lathe walls without tearing half the wall down, it just takes a bit more time and professionalism.

Doc H.

 

[wozz]

As said sinking back boxes deeper than flush can save problems with some plates, if you have lathe and plaster walls suggest your house is old chasing brick this old is very difficult and sometimes disintergrate while looking at them, holes can be filled with bonding / hardwall, 20 mill doesn't sound too bad, plasters are ****ging it off to justify price to 'sort out what the electrician has done' standard practice.

Nowhere to hide with lathe and plaster should avoid pitting anything recessed is the best idea with it.

 

[JimmyJ]

Many thanks for all your advice, its been very helpful and informative!

 

[welchyboy]

Sounds like a 5ww domestic installer merchant to me, that's the problem with these sites(trustatrader etc) the irony is they are actually full of cowboys who can't rely on word of mouth or recommendation, I would not of paid himuntil he redone the job properly as it sounds like the job he did could of been done by anyone!

I allways try to finish a metal box flush with the wall , if I think there's a likely hood of flat plate sockets being used I'd use 35mm boxes, simples!

Try making good a socket box that's cut miles back in the wall!!

I have a few different ways of fitting boxes in lathe walls

1. Make a small hole in the wall and use a cable rod to slide down each side of the wall till you hit the joist, then cut the box into the centre of the verticle joist so you can get a solid fixing on the joist

2. Cut a socket box hole out in the lathe, then vertically brace two 2x1 bits of batten across the back of the hole screwing the batten in at Least twice at the top and bottom of each batten with countersunk 2inch screws into the horizontal lathes, fill in the screw holes afterwards, you should now have the space to fix a 25mm steel back box

3. Use a deep dry lining box, that you would use for a shaver socket etc this will give you the extra distance you need to clamp the lathe and plaster

However you will need to have some solid lathe and plaster to work with if not use option 2

Please note the cuts Into the lathe should be made with a fien multimaster or similar machine with a diamond/ carbide blade to cut the plaster then a wood blade for the lathes this will give you a really sharp cut and a nice finish, DO NOT use a plasterboard saw or you will get a lovely big hole in your wall like the original monkey has done

 

[wozz]

Sounds like a 5ww domestic installer merchant to me, that's the problem with these sites(trustatrader etc) the irony is they are actually full of cowboys who can't rely on word of mouth or recommendation, I would not of paid himuntil he redone the job properly as it sounds like the job he did could of been done by anyone!I allways try to finish a metal box flush with the wall , if I think there's a likely hood of flat plate sockets being used I'd use 35mm boxes, simples!

Try making good a socket box that's cut miles back in the wall!!

I have a few different ways of fitting boxes in lathe walls

1. Make a small hole in the wall and use a cable rod to slide down each side of the wall till you hit the joist, then cut the box into the centre of the verticle joist so you can get a solid fixing on the joist

2. Cut a socket box hole out in the lathe, then vertically brace two 2x1 bits of batten across the back of the hole screwing the batten in at Least twice at the top and bottom of each batten with countersunk 2inch screws into the horizontal lathes, fill in the screw holes afterwards, you should now have the space to fix a 25mm steel back box

3. Use a deep dry lining box, that you would use for a shaver socket etc this will give you the extra distance you need to clamp the lathe and plaster

However you will need to have some solid lathe and plaster to work with if not use option 2

Please note the cuts Into the lathe should be made with a fien multimaster or similar machine with a diamond/ carbide blade to cut the plaster then a wood blade for the lathes this will give you a really sharp cut and a nice finish, DO NOT use a plasterboard saw or you will get a lovely big hole in your wall like the original monkey has done

So from a brief explanation from the op you have concluded the installer is a monkey, a 5ww, trust a trader is full of cowboys and the only way to get work is word of mouth. Sounds a bit sweeping to me.

I'm unsure why there is a tendency to dig out your own at the first possible opportunity. I'm not saying the installer did do a good job. But without pictures it's hard to make a accurate assessment.

I've done jobs before where the customer got told I done a terrible job by the plaster. Customer asked for flush sockets what he got plaster arrives and decides to bond out wall then skim tells customer to get me back as my boxes are too deep and he can't bond to them.

Sounds like (without pictures) plasters are making a meal out of it. Let's face it how much is it actually going to cost to make this good? Not a lot I would imagine. Probably not as much as the difference between cheapest and most expensive quote?

 

[revjames]

A decent spark (rather than the vague 'installer' term) would have made sure the boxes were level and would have had adequate experience in fitting boxes to lath and plaster to ensure a tidy job was done. Just goes to show how these trade safe (or whatever) often mooted by shows like 'Cowboy Builders' are a waste of time. You are better off finding a reputable local time served and experienced electrician to do the work.

 

[welchyboy]

Sounds like a 5ww domestic installer merchant to me, that's the problem with these sites(trustatrader etc) the irony is they are actually full of cowboys who can't rely on word of mouth or recommendation, I would not of paid himuntil he redone the job properly as it sounds like the job he did could of been done by anyone!I allways try to finish a metal box flush with the wall , if I think there's a likely hood of flat plate sockets being used I'd use 35mm boxes, simples!

Try making good a socket box that's cut miles back in the wall!!

I have a few different ways of fitting boxes in lathe walls

1. Make a small hole in the wall and use a cable rod to slide down each side of the wall till you hit the joist, then cut the box into the centre of the verticle joist so you can get a solid fixing on the joist

2. Cut a socket box hole out in the lathe, then vertically brace two 2x1 bits of batten across the back of the hole screwing the batten in at Least twice at the top and bottom of each batten with countersunk 2inch screws into the horizontal lathes, fill in the screw holes afterwards, you should now have the space to fix a 25mm steel back box

3. Use a deep dry lining box, that you would use for a shaver socket etc this will give you the extra distance you need to clamp the lathe and plaster

However you will need to have some solid lathe and plaster to work with if not use option 2

Please note the cuts Into the lathe should be made with a fien multimaster or similar machine with a diamond/ carbide blade to cut the plaster then a wood blade for the lathes this will give you a really sharp cut and a nice finish, DO NOT use a plasterboard saw or you will get a lovely big hole in your wall like the original monkey has done

So from a brief explanation from the op you have concluded the installer is a monkey, a 5ww, trust a trader is full of cowboys and the only way to get work is word of mouth. Sounds a bit sweeping to me.

I'm unsure why there is a tendency to dig out your own at the first possible opportunity. I'm not saying the installer did do a good job. But without pictures it's hard to make a accurate assessment.

I've done jobs before where the customer got told I done a terrible job by the plaster. Customer asked for flush sockets what he got plaster arrives and decides to bond out wall then skim tells customer to get me back as my boxes are too deep and he can't bond to them.

Sounds like (without pictures) plasters are making a meal out of it. Let's face it how much is it actually going to cost to make this good? Not a lot I would imagine. Probably not as much as the difference between cheapest and most expensive quote?

as this is what I come up against quite often in the domestic market I'm pretty sure I'm right, and as for digging out my own, i take it as an insult to be put in the same bracket with someone who would leave a job in this state

If a plasterer is snagging your work then as far as I'm concerned it's crap!

Sorry

If there's that many issues with putting in a few socket boxes then it's obviously not a good or experienced electrician who's installed it as no decent spark I know would walk away from a load of wonky boxes and a large hole in the wall!

So in conclusion yes he was a monkey in my book, no doubt!

 

[wozz]

Haha so my work is crap as well as a plaster can change their mind about what they are doing after I have left?

I must get myself on the city and guilds in mind reading!

 

[OnOff]

Or if electrical boxes "not deep enough":

2 Gang 12mm Wall Spacer - QVS Electrical Supplies | Electrical Wholesaler

Then a nice bit of decorators caulk where it meets the wall. Go lovely with brass fittings

 

[welchyboy]

Haha so my work is crap as well as a plaster can change their mind about what they are doing after I have left? I must get myself on the city and guilds in mind reading!

Well surely if the wall is to be bonded or dot and dabbedyou would leave the boxes about 15mm proud from the wall, and if the wall is only to be skimmed then you would finish it flush??

If this is what has been done then how could he start slating your work?

If he was planning on just skimming a wall and you have installed to that plan then he decides to bond it instead then he surely wouldn't start jumping up and down would he???

However, going back to the OP it wasn't just boxes too far back in the wall was it

Also I wasn't trying to say word of mouth is the only way to get work, far from it, I was pointing out that due to the nature of these Companies(trustatrader etc) and the leads they get and they cost they charge, where it's basically getting trades to quote against each other for a pittance to do silly jobs,ironically it's likely to mostly attract the kind of tradesmen you actually don't want installing your electrics, who incidentally also do carpentry, building, and kitchen fitting!

 

[wozz]

You are missing the point plaster quotes for job ' I'll just skim it mate' electrician does his job plaster arrives after 'walls damp' or 'couldn't get a good finish on that' next thing studded off or bonded out and it's the sparks that needs to get back to sort out his work. Happened again the other day walls got studded off my boxes got pulled out the wall and left on the floor nice surprise for second fix. My point was plasters change their mind. In the ops case he doesn't say if they are being bonded or not, was the electrician informed of what as going on? Or did the plan change?

Not a member of trust a trader and never will be. All I was saying as is without pictures it's hard to judge properly it doesn't sound like its a brilliant job, but we are taking the word of plasters and a op who (no offence) doesn't sound too experienced in what he should be getting. And messages don't always get filtered down as they should.

I would like to know how many quotes the op got and what he payed.

 

[MKS]

My post is only relevant with deep boxes. I remember starting out and asked to chop in some back boxes for cookers in a block of flats in Shepshed, the kitchens were adjacent to the bedroom next door! Well anyway, I chopped it so deep that went through bedroom next door, funny now but very embarrassing and costly at the time!