EV Charging - The Future

[ntipping]

Hi Guys,

Forum Newbie here, I'm an Electrical Apprentice and was looking at EV Charging. How do people think that we are going to be able to fit all of these charging places? The government has said that most people will be having electrical cars by 2025. I've noticed that more electrical companies are offering EV Charging installations than ever before.

 

[Geoff1946]

You have picked on exactly the points which lead me to believe, " Isn't going to happen".   

As an electrical apprentice you probably have an idea how much power those things can take.   

Now imagine a street of car-owning families. Do you think the cables under the street are going to be able to meet the demand?  If they can, what about the sub station?, distribution network?, generation?  Do you see any serious action to re-inforce these utilities?

Trying to square politicians' promises with engineering possibilities doesn't work, so something is going to have to give.  And no, I don't know what, though I'm hopeful that hydrogen fuel will come into play.  Even then, vastly reduced car ownership appears likely to me, but it will take a brave politician to admit that.

 

[Murdoch]

It’s the rise in all electric homes that we need to be concerned about. Not just the consumption of lecky but the cost ...

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi Guys,

Forum Newbie here, I'm an Electrical Apprentice and was looking at EV Charging. How do people think that we are going to be able to fit all of these charging places? The government has said that most people will be having electrical cars by 2025. I've noticed that more electrical companies are offering EV Charging installations than ever before.

You are spot on with the big "Elephant in the room" problem that no one seems to talk about...   Guinness

Also I think you forgot to mention the change from Gas boilers to electric heating.. as well???   :innocent

I have no idea what your road is like...

But where I live many houses have more than one car..

Within 15mins walking distance there are several roads with limited or no off-road parking..   (how do they charge..  "fight you for a lamp-post plug-in flex").

There are hundreds and hundreds of properties that date from 1920's or earlier..

( guess what size many of their incoming cables & main cut-out fuses are..    Correct 60A is commonplace !  :Salute    {Pick any prize off the top shelf!}   :Applaud  )  

So how on earth are these going to charge one or two cars..  Plus heat all of the house from an electric source..   

without serious overload issues..?  :C

And none of that even includes the issues of the chargers themselves and/or their installation / earthing methods..

(other ongoing threads are discussing EV charger issues, regulations, compliance etc.  etc.. etc..)

The can of worms is very big...

and I don't think the lid has been lifted sufficiently yet to allow them all to slide out over the floor...

so everyone can see how big the problem really is.. 

:|

welcome to the forum..

The virtual Beer Guinness is on the second floor.. just past the lift next to the Gold members washroom..

 

[Geoff1946]

It’s the rise in all electric homes that we need to be concerned about. Not just the consumption of lecky but the cost ...

I absolutely agree. It's the same issue, - promising an all electric life but with no sign of the infrastructure investment which that would demand. 

They can build as many wind farms as they like but unless someone can get the genie out of the bottle to solve the storage issue the wind farms are useless on a cold calm winter's day, (e.g. the week before last).

 

[binky]

Trying to square politicians' promises with engineering possibilities doesn't work, so something is going to have to give.  And no, I don't know what, though I'm hopeful that hydrogen fuel will come into play.  Even then, vastly reduced car ownership appears likely to me, but it will take a brave politician to admit that.

Apart from hydrogen making more sense, as this means it also solves the storage issues of green tech - just use spare leccy to create hydrogen, I also think electric bikes and scooters offer a really simple way forward for those commuting short distances. Apart from taking the charging load off the grid that cars would impose, you can charge them in your house / at work, with little issue. The carbon footrprint is miniscule compared to building a car. 

 

[binky]

It’s the rise in all electric homes that we need to be concerned about. Not just the consumption of lecky but the cost ...

for new builds, this is not much of an issue. Given the insulation is so good, you probbaly only need a small electric heater to warm the whole house. A friend has built his own house to 'passive standards' which is basically an extra 2" of insulation all around the house. He has a 1kW heater that he uses only in the really cold weather, and as I fitted solar panels, that doesn't cost him much. 

 

[Geoff1946]

There is an interesting article in today's Telegraph about hydrogen as a fuel.  There is a lot more going on than I had realised, and I reckon this supports my  belief that  an all-electric vehicle fleet is only a dream. 

I believe that EVs will be short lived, rather like compact fluorescents before led technology matured. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/03/11/hydrogen-revolution-real-will-change-world/

 

[ProDave]

There is a proposal here to build a Hydrogen plant in Invergordon, powered by wind turbines in the Moray Firth.  The plan is to power local industry like the distilleries.

2 things bother me about the "green" credentials of this:

Firstly they will only use wind generated electricity.  Great. that's just like a consumer that signs up to a "renewable" electricity tariff.  It just means the other electricity customers "use" the non renewable electricity not you.  It does not in any way mean your hydrogen plant does not contribute to CO2 emissions (turn your hydrogen plant off and CO2 emissions will drop as fossil fuel generation shuts down to match demand)

Secondly, if it's all about powering local industry, why does the local industry not just use renewable electricity?  How can converting the electricity to hydrogen, piping it to the plants, and burning it there, give them anything better than just locally using renewable electricity?

 

[Geoff1946]

How can converting the electricity to hydrogen, piping it to the plants, and burning it there, give them anything better than just locally using renewable electricity?

Storage.

 

[binky]

There is a proposal here to build a Hydrogen plant in Invergordon, powered by wind turbines in the Moray Firth.  The plan is to power local industry like the distilleries.

2 things bother me about the "green" credentials of this:

Firstly they will only use wind generated electricity.  Great. that's just like a consumer that signs up to a "renewable" electricity tariff.  It just means the other electricity customers "use" the non renewable electricity not you.  It does not in any way mean your hydrogen plant does not contribute to CO2 emissions (turn your hydrogen plant off and CO2 emissions will drop as fossil fuel generation shuts down to match demand)

Secondly, if it's all about powering local industry, why does the local industry not just use renewable electricity?  How can converting the electricity to hydrogen, piping it to the plants, and burning it there, give them anything better than just locally using renewable electricity?

LIke all green tech, there is a carbon footprint to everything. Solar panels have a footprint of about 6 months, Chinese panels about 9  months because of the extra shipping. Panels having a life of 30-40 years. So with all things like wind turbines, the it's about how long it lasts v it's carbon footprint. Ideally we would make our own wind turbines to get the best benefits. 

Generating Hydrogen is not a particularly efficient process, but as all green tech is too variable to be truly reliable as we have discussed before, then storage of a useble fuel makes sense. You can't run a distillery if the green tech powering it isn't generating enough that day, or generates it at the wrong time of day. We have one of the worlds greatest wind sources ie we are a draughty country LOL! We are also not lacking in water supplies, so hydrogen allows the energy to be generated off site, ie in a windier place, and then transferred to where it is needed, no different to petrol for cars. It also allows surplus hydrogen to be used by other people, eg to power cars or the like, or the transport lorries. Upgrading the national grid is not a cheap process, and batteries come with their own poor footprint of rare metal elements which have limited supplies - I really think they are a lettuced stop-gap! 

You could of course argue that just connecting all the green tech to the grid, and then syphoning off surplus to generate hydrogen makes more sense, but I suspect that the co-ordination of such a large national scheme woud be very time consuming and expensive, just like digging all the roads and pavements up to power electric cars. That was the main joy of sticking solar panels on peoples houses, it's small scale, relatively cheap and quick to do. I am of the opinion that doing the same for hydrogen cars is the way forward. The infrastruture is really no differnt to using LPG gas at petrol stations, so avoids an awful lot of chaos and disruption. 

I suspect the project in Scotland is a test bed for ideas to prove practicality of such an idea before moving to larger scale version. Personally I think it's a great idea, and would love to see our government give it financial backing so that we can create a new industry that we can sell to the world (although I suspect Japan is way ahead already).

 

[boltonsparky]

My limited knowledge of hydrogen gives me the view that it is just a big middle man, take the electricity used in the production and distribution of it and put that directly into an EV.

 

[UNG]

A friend has built his own house to 'passive standards' which is basically an extra 2" of insulation all around the house. He has a 1kW heater that he uses only in the really cold weather, and as I fitted solar panels, that doesn't cost him much. 

There is a lot more to it than just 2" of insulation, the property has to be pressure tested and the air leakage measured, can't remember all the numbers but a vet's surgery built to Passiv Haus standards I worked on recently the air leakage was less than 10% of the allowed maximum, the vet who designed and built it was very happy that day