Low Mains Voltage (~190-220v) - How to resolve?

Talk Electrician Forum

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
How the authors of BS 7671 decide on what to put in and how to word it is beyond me.

So if you have a EV, do you need to tell the owner to carry around the bits to add TT earths?

Nonsense .......
That would be madness, but even with using a regular 1363 socket you are still not allowed to use a PME supply, use a supply that's PME in any part or use a TNS supply that could be converted to PME in the future...... unless you TT it (and then you have to be careful about having differing earthing methods within reach) or use a O-PEN device (the much easier option)

 
are they expensive?
no idea. i know they exist and what they do but other than that, not had anything to do with them. dont usually fit car chargers so never had a need to use them, but tbh i can see them being a requirement in the future on all installations since DNO take the easy option of TNCS which can fail badly...

 
Update: the DNO had sent an engineer out today (I had no idea until he turned up at the gate). Anyway, I told him what happened, he was also here the last time (where much digging was done in the name of fault finding) and I told him that since the last area wide power cut it's gone back to how it was before. 

Anywho, he did some tests, he measured 248v on 2 unused phases and 225v on our phase. I also mentioned the voltage drops and he said to go turn on an appliance. I turned the oven on in the kitchen and he acknowledged the voltage drop and that it was excessive indicating an issue on the service. He also went and checked the voltage at a service cutout just opposite our property (where the line ends I'm told) and asked me to turn the oven on again - he noticed no change in voltage there. I asked if that meant it's a problem with our wiring, and he said he still thinks there is an issue with the service. He said he can offer a generator and I refused as we had one last time and they are far too noisy - plus we are managing. But he said to leave it with him. Sooo let's see what happens. 

Edit: he also mentioned where the transformer was and it is at a property about 100 meters down the road - so not that far I believe?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Given that he measured a difference at your cut out but not at the end of line point then I’d suggest that there may be a break down on the cable between the two. 

It may be that the loading that your property is applying to the cable is highlighting their problem but I wouldn’t rule out there being issues within your installation which add to the supply problem. 
my advice is get the three phase metering installed, have an electrician in to test your  installation, see if anything materialises from this DNO report.

don’t be surprised if some of your install requires altering though. 
 

where on the map are you?  

 
We had a similar issue with our house a number of years ago, switching on the elctric cooker or the 8.5Kw electric shower would cause the lights to dim, so I decided to investigate. The earth loop value was within the limits and not at the higher end either, I attached a voltmeter to the incomer and also a clamp ammeter, I could actually get the voltage down to about 150V when pulling a load of about 40A, dependant on the time of day. The DNO came out and the young lad did a loop test, said it was fine and went to leave, I then showed him my results and gave him a demonstration, he instantly said he knew what it was and shortly afterwards proceeded to dig up the road outside our house.

He'd just about got to the joint when a more senior engineer arrived and asked why he'd dug up the road, had he not read the recent briefings? It then turned out that the reason for the fault was that the ring we were fed from had gone faulty and they'd isolated a section meaning we were on the end of a very long radial. About a week later they repaired the cable and all was well, for the time being at least.

They've just started a major cable replacement programme in my area, a large amount of the 132Kv feeders to the subs are being replaced, I think that they'd put it off for as long as they could, when power cuts became a twice weekly event and the restoration time was being measured in times of 7 or 8 hours they had to do something.

It's all very well people telling us to use more electric as it is 'cleaner and greener' but a lot of the infrastructure is not up to it. I remember a couple of years ago on a job, I had the DNO out to a fault and we got chatting, he showed me the cable drawings for the estate, built in the 50's iirc, the feeder for the street we were in comprising about 150 houses was an old cable and was only a 16mm 4 core, or it's imperial equivalent more accurately.

I can see a time in the not to distant future when having an EV charge point will dramatically affect the value of your home, we all know the network capbilities are finite and at some point the DNO will start to restrict who can have an EV point based on local loadings. Now let us take two identical houses, say yours and your next door neighbours, they are both worth lets say £250K for arguments sake, now suppose he has an EV point fitted and shortly after the DNO refuses to allow any more because that cable has reached it's capacity, so you can't have one, how is that going to affect not only your house price, but also the ability to sell it!

Will yours be worth less because for the forseeable future you cannot have an EV point, will it possibly even limit the number of people interested in buying your property, after all if you already own an EV, or are seriously considering buying one, there''s no point buying a property where you cannot have a charge point fitted.

 
@phil d

that’s where load curtailment and using your EV as electric storage to feed in comes into play
Try telling that to the average family with a couple of teenage kids who drive, lol 'dad, my sister has nicked the charging point again' followed by 'Well he's always charging his car'. It's a bit like the bloody internet, I've turned sections of factories and hospitals off with less aggro than I get in a house when I shut of the power and little Billy can't get the internet.

 
Given that he measured a difference at your cut out but not at the end of line point then I’d suggest that there may be a break down on the cable between the two. 

It may be that the loading that your property is applying to the cable is highlighting their problem but I wouldn’t rule out there being issues within your installation which add to the supply problem. 
my advice is get the three phase metering installed, have an electrician in to test your  installation, see if anything materialises from this DNO report.

don’t be surprised if some of your install requires altering though. 
 

where on the map are you?  
I know the loading gets bandied about here but that really is a peak loading, for 90% of the time we are below 100A. When the DNO measured the voltage today at 225v it was at 25A - so hardly excessive or taxing.

But yes 3 phase is still planned so fingers crossed. 

 
Update: the DNO had sent an engineer out today (I had no idea until he turned up at the gate). Anyway, I told him what happened, he was also here the last time (where much digging was done in the name of fault finding) and I told him that since the last area wide power cut it's gone back to how it was before. 

Anywho, he did some tests, he measured 248v on 2 unused phases and 225v on our phase. I also mentioned the voltage drops and he said to go turn on an appliance. I turned the oven on in the kitchen and he acknowledged the voltage drop and that it was excessive indicating an issue on the service. He also went and checked the voltage at a service cutout just opposite our property (where the line ends I'm told) and asked me to turn the oven on again - he noticed no change in voltage there. I asked if that meant it's a problem with our wiring, and he said he still thinks there is an issue with the service. He said he can offer a generator and I refused as we had one last time and they are far too noisy - plus we are managing. But he said to leave it with him. Sooo let's see what happens. 

Edit: he also mentioned where the transformer was and it is at a property about 100 meters down the road - so not that far I believe?


2 things spring to mind -

  guy who did the data recording has reported back and shown a fault exsists.

  New guy is more experienced and has confirmed the supply is faulty, which to my  mind, it clearly is. 

Trouble with big companies is they tell staff never to admit an issue exists (at least not to your face), and even if there is an issue, getting things sorted out can be like watching paint dry. I'm quite lucky in my area,  Western Power seem quite good at sorting things out quite rapidly. 

 
Well Binks, I thought your answer was succinct right up until you rubbed his nose in it by suggesting WP were more efficient 😂😂 don’t think the OP needs to hear that!! 


Not trying to run anyones nose in anything. I just get on well with WPD, who I've had quite a few dealings with as there's nothing like solar inverters for finding faulty supplies - a bit like RCDs and faulty appliances. 

 
Try telling that to the average family with a couple of teenage kids who drive, lol 'dad, my sister has nicked the charging point again' followed by 'Well he's always charging his car'. It's a bit like the bloody internet, I've turned sections of factories and hospitals off with less aggro than I get in a house when I shut of the power and little Billy can't get the internet.
LOL.... it's going to be a long time before we have that kind of problem I'd expect,,,, and if that were the case then I'd expect people to have multiple charging points or one that can supply multiple vehicles (with load curtailment)..... but I know what you mean ;)  I had it today after carrying out an EICR,,, kids come home from school "MUUUUUM... the internet isn't working!".. luckily I'd finished so I told them to plug it back in

 
We had a similar issue with our house a number of years ago, switching on the elctric cooker or the 8.5Kw electric shower would cause the lights to dim, so I decided to investigate. The earth loop value was within the limits and not at the higher end either, I attached a voltmeter to the incomer and also a clamp ammeter, I could actually get the voltage down to about 150V when pulling a load of about 40A, dependant on the time of day. The DNO came out and the young lad did a loop test, said it was fine and went to leave, I then showed him my results and gave him a demonstration, he instantly said he knew what it was and shortly afterwards proceeded to dig up the road outside our house.

He'd just about got to the joint when a more senior engineer arrived and asked why he'd dug up the road, had he not read the recent briefings? It then turned out that the reason for the fault was that the ring we were fed from had gone faulty and they'd isolated a section meaning we were on the end of a very long radial. About a week later they repaired the cable and all was well, for the time being at least.
That sounds alot like the issue we had before (and kind of now) except yours is much worse if you could get it to 150v only at 40A. Last night, at 60A ours was measuring around 208v. 

Given that he measured a difference at your cut out but not at the end of line point then I’d suggest that there may be a break down on the cable between the two. 

where on the map are you?  
That's what I thought at first, although during the last fault, about 2 months ago, they dug up the cable, coming off the main, which feeds only our property, at 5 separate points and found no issue with it. They contained the exposed sections in resin moulds as they had to cut into the live wire - do those have issues?

 
Top