Main Power Cable Into Property - Who Maintains, Repairs And Upgrades?

[fatbob88]

I live in a first floor maisonette in a purpose built block of four built in 1959. There are two on the ground and two on the first floor.

Under our leases my neighbour in the downstairs maisonette and I are responsible for maintaining and repairing of the structure of the building, including the foundations the roof and the service pipes, cables and drains etc. Which is basically everything under the roof on our side of the building. The cost of any works being shared equally. The same arrangements exists on the other side of the building for the occupants of those maisonettes. There is also repairing covenants in the leases should for example a party wall need repairing between the two sides of the building whereby the affected parties need to contribute equally. There are no communal parts and as the name maisonette suggests we have our own front doors but share a pathway from the street to our front doors.

My neighbour in the ground floor below me has just completed on a major refurb including a full rewire and has applied to get his main fuse upgraded. At least I think that's the plan. I guy from Uk Power Networks accompanied by the wife of my neighbour knocked on my door the other day wanting to have a look at where my main supply came in to my property. It happens to be near my street door at the bottom of my stairs and I let the guy in. He said as he suspected that my neighbours supply is looped off mine so what they are proposing to do is change that arrangement so my neighbour has his own supply and fuse and into the bargain I will have my own.

Now the guy started to wave his electrical detector around outside on our shared pathway which leads down to the street/councils path. There was all sorts of beeping noises coming from it but his conclusion from the exercise was that they would have to remove the paving slabs and excavate a trench to put some new cabling in. My neighbours wife asked how much it would cost and the UK PN guy said he thought it would be free of charge as they were obliged to provide free of charge... I think he said a 100 amp fuse and on the existing arrangement it is only 80 amp.

So could someone please clarify what is going on here and in particular:

1) Who is responsible for the repair and maintenance of the main cable from the street which travels under our shared pathway to the properties. In the case of our gas supplies it is the responsibility of the gas network operators.

2) Will my neighbour be charged for the work.

3) Would those figures be correct for the current fuse and the intended replacement one i.e 80 and 100 amp respectively. 

I understand UK PN are going to make arrangements to come out again to firm up on the job and it would be useful to understand what they are talking about so any help here would be very much appreciated.  

 

[apprentice87]

1, The DNO [uK PN]

2, IF there is not a fault, and your neighbour wants an increase in supply capacity, almost definitely i would think, up to the DNO though. They are not obliged to provide any particular supply capacity, 80A, 100A or whatever, it all depends on what is possible depending on existing network capacity, you could have your own pylon in the front garden so long as you were willing to pay for it, but again, each DNO can do as it likes... As they are getting rid of the existing looped supply, you might all be lucky and get separate improved supplies for free, at least you might!!!!

3, Could well be...

Be an expensive 20 amps......

Anyway, i do not think you should have to pay, you are responsible between you all for maintenence, not upgrading works because one person wants it. All depends on the lease agreement.

john..

See what the others on here think.... They will be along soon!!!!

 

[Blue Duck]

The cables in the ground belong to who ever owns them, In your case its a Chinese bank.

They are responsible for the equipment up to and sometimes including your main fuse.

This Chinese Bank wants both you and your neighbour to have separate supplies as it is safer and it makes it easier of them to repair / maintain in the future.

It should be free but both you and you neighbour must agree to have work done.

I have this as an ongoing dispute with my neighbour, the stupid arse won't agree to have the work done!

 

[Andy™]

as above, DNO is responsible for cable. generally if you want it changed then you will pay, if its faulty then DNO pays for its repair. either way, its nothing to do with you, if they want it upgraded and there are any charges etc, then its your neighbours problem

 

[Blue Duck]

UKPN Don't charge for replacing a looped supply with two separate supplies but not sure what the old cable will take so its probably safer to limit at 80a.?

 

[apprentice87]

Yes, exactly what Andy said!!!!!

Blue duck, You know why that is [your neighbour does not want the proper supply] because someone has told him that they, [the dno] will want to know his installation is safe before they re-connect it. You neighbour must know or suspect that his installation is crap!!!

john....

 

[Blue Duck]

It's crap... done by a dodgy builder years ago. Still has 3mm main earth!!! he's just a tw@ and I may have to settle for a head change.

Or I could pull his main fuse and throw it away

 

[fatbob88]

Thanks for all the informative replies folks.
 
I have obtained a drawing from UK PN. My neighbours door is shown on the left hand side. His meter cupboard is as shown just behind his front door. My meter cupboard is near my front door too.
 
Could someone interpret the notes on the drawing for me please e.g. what's the 1 PLC main mean and I see two figures of a 5 meter trench then another 7m of phase 1 and then a cnb2x7?  The customer is having some sort of ducting installed too.
 
One last thing, will UK PN test/inspect my wiring when they do the job?

 

[apprentice87]

Hi there.

Right, The "PILC" bit, in full, is "PILCSWA"

It stands for "paper insulated lead covered steel wire armoured" That refers to the type of cable they have used as the LV [low voltage] main in the street. So that is just showing you the location of their cable in the street.

Then, the instructions to the contractor, [the "electricity" people do not dig the hole themselves, the employ others to do the digging] mean; "dig a joint hole" [These are about a metre square] and then a five metre trench, and then, lay 7 metres of single phase service cable.

Obviously, the trench might be 5 metres long, but you need a spare bit at the ends to reach into the building to where the cutout is, and then another spare bit so the jointers can terminate the other end to the main, so 7 metres of cable.

They will just use their judgement as to the precise length, they are not daft!!. The next bit, the CNB2 is just telling them what type and size of service cable to use. This must be UKPN speak, as the cable is known as CNE and will be 25mm in size.

I do not mean 25mm diameter, it is the cross sectional area of the conductor in millimeters, [it is actually about 6 or 7mm in diameter], surrounded by the concentric neutral. [it is very much like telly aerial co-ax in construction] The actual overall diameter of the cable will only be about half an inch or so, maybe a fraction larger..

Now, the contractors will only dig up the pavement. The duct part means that the customer themselves, will have to dig up the floor inside the building and will also have to install a "hockey stick" [it is just a bent bit of plastic pipe] and the 32mm diameter ducting that will have to poke through the wall underground, out into the street. This needs to be installed to a depth of 450mm from the top of the duct to ground level.

What the contractors are expecting, is to dig the joint hole and the trench, and then at the end of the trench, next to the wall of the building, find the end of the duct that they can poke the cable through.

If when they get there, the customer has not installed the duct as instructed, [the dno usually provide it, the duct itself and the hockey stick I mean] the contractors will simply leave, and the customer will be billed for the wasted trip to site....

The jointers instructions are simply to joint the service cable onto the main at the one end, and to then terminate the other end to a new cutout where the old one is now, and to disconnect the old looped one.

Once again, they are not daft and know what has to be done. They do it all "live" too, wearing rubber gloves so as not to cut the power off. Sounds a bit hairy, but is easy when you know how!! Interesting to watch, so try to be there if you can. To joint onto the main will only take them about half an hour.

Finally, i doubt they will test your wiring, but if it looks unsafe, may well refuse to re-connect you until YOU have had it tested and given them a cert. This is VERY VERY unlikely though, the wiring would have to look ancient and/or like a halfwit had wired it.

They will not want to wander around your flat looking at it, they will just make their minds up from what they see from where it is connected to their bit. They will be looking for suitable provision for earthing and the like, and meter tails the right size and condition. It will be ok, so do not worry about that. They will just be in a mad rush to get it done and off to the next job.

What they will do, is to test THEIR finished job for ELI and polarity, so you will HAVE to be there at the time, as they will need to get to your cutout [that i presume is in your flat] to do this.

Most important thing is that when they get there, the ducting is properly installed....... but this is not your problem....

john...

 

[pewter]

Hi there.

Right, The "PILC" bit, in full, is "PILCSWA"

It stands for "paper insulated lead covered steel wire armoured" That refers to the type of cable they have used as the LV [low voltage] main in the street. So that is just showing you the location of their cable in the street.

Then, the instructions to the contractor, [the "electricity" people do not dig the hole themselves, the employ others to do the digging] mean; "dig a joint hole" [These are about a metre square] and then a five metre trench, and then, lay 7 metres of single phase service cable.

Obviously, the trench might be 5 metres long, but you need a spare bit at the ends to reach into the building to where the cutout is, and then another spare bit so the jointers can terminate the other end to the main, so 7 metres of cable.

They will just use their judgement as to the precise length, they are not daft!!. The next bit, the CNB2 is just telling them what type and size of service cable to use. This must be UKPN speak, as the cable is known as CNE and will be 25mm in size.

I do not mean 25mm diameter, it is the cross sectional area of the conductor in millimeters, [it is actually about 6 or 7mm in diameter], surrounded by the concentric neutral. [it is very much like telly aerial co-ax in construction] The actual overall diameter of the cable will only be about half an inch or so, maybe a fraction larger..

Now, the contractors will only dig up the pavement. The duct part means that the customer themselves, will have to dig up the floor inside the building and will also have to install a "hockey stick" [it is just a bent bit of plastic pipe] and the 32mm diameter ducting that will have to poke through the wall underground, out into the street. This needs to be installed to a depth of 450mm from the top of the duct to ground level.

What the contractors are expecting, is to dig the joint hole and the trench, and then at the end of the trench, next to the wall of the building, find the end of the duct that they can poke the cable through.

If when they get there, the customer has not installed the duct as instructed, [the dno usually provide it, the duct itself and the hockey stick I mean] the contractors will simply leave, and the customer will be billed for the wasted trip to site....

The jointers instructions are simply to joint the service cable onto the main at the one end, and to then terminate the other end to a new cutout where the old one is now, and to disconnect the old looped one.

Once again, they are not daft and know what has to be done. They do it all "live" too, wearing rubber gloves so as not to cut the power off. Sounds a bit hairy, but is easy when you know how!! Interesting to watch, so try to be there if you can. To joint onto the main will only take them about half an hour.

Finally, i doubt they will test your wiring, but if it looks unsafe, may well refuse to re-connect you until YOU have had it tested and given them a cert. This is VERY VERY unlikely though, the wiring would have to look ancient and/or like a halfwit had wired it.

They will not want to wander around your flat looking at it, they will just make their minds up from what they see from where it is connected to their bit. They will be looking for suitable provision for earthing and the like, and meter tails the right size and condition. It will be ok, so do not worry about that. They will just be in a mad rush to get it done and off to the next job.

What they will do, is to test THEIR finished job for ELI and polarity, so you will HAVE to be there at the time, as they will need to get to your cutout [that i presume is in your flat] to do this.

Most important thing is that when they get there, the ducting is properly installed....... but this is not your problem....

john...

:Applaud

I nominate this for the best answer to a question for the talk electrician 2015 awards

If i could give you my whole months scoob's i would.

 

[fatbob88]

John, first of all thank you so much for your time to give me such a detailed reply. Great explanation for a layman such as myself.

So the 7 metres is the length of the run of the CNE from the street main up to and into my neighbours flat. It will be laid in the trench and fed through the 32 mm ducting which the neighbour is to have installed himself? So the CNE contains the live and neutral separated by an insulting material which saves having to run two cables everywhere?

Is the purpose of the joint hole to create the space for them to connect me up to the new cable using the existing cables coming into my flat. My cables come in through a piece of metal conduit protruding out of the floor which I presume is the old equivalent of the ducting they are asking my neighbour to install? 

How will my neighbour find the right person to install the ducting as it sound like it's a builders job but will a builder understand what my neighbour wants to achieve for UK PN? I suppose the way around it is for my neighbour to get a builder to meet up with UK PN when they come out to firm up on the job?  

Thanks for the re-assurance on the testing my wiring, I thought I was going to get a free test and inspection report I have nothing to fear about a test anyway as my wiring would probably be described as fair to good with a reasonably modern consumer unit. There is earth bonding on the main earth terminal 6mm I think and new tails on the meter put on by the electric company a few years ago after a meter change. 

I don't know what a cut out looks like but there seems to be a cluster of black plastic boxes with wire and lead seals on my meter board. Going off what blue duck said above one of them will contain the fuse for my neighbours wiring. A cut out conjures up the image of a switch with a big lever to me but there's nothing like that in the vicinity of my meter board.

Cheers 

 

[Blue Duck]

There are lots of different types of service head or cutout Some getting close to 100 years old!

I'd put money on you having an ISCO head with Henly fuse carriers.

Heres a randoms selection from my photobucket

old DC head no Idea how old!

Not sure of age but exclusive to the London borough of Hackney

1930's? (there now PV connected to this)

1940's ? though ukpn man said that isco's were 90+years old

1970's ?

More modern 1980's?

Installed last week

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Good guide there, well done.

 

[fatbob88]

Thanks for the pics Blue Duck. Can't say any of them look like my arrangement, think I saw the first one in one of the Sherlock Holmes series of programmes on telly. And by the way, I hope you've got your buildings and contents well covered. God forbid but would your neighbours insurance company pay out in the event of fire when forensics discover the nature of the installation?  

Will have to get my digital camera out and post a pic. Bought a cheap digital camera recently thinking that it would be simple to operate, simply click then download to computer. Oh man how wrong was I! Came with no lead so had to grapple with blue tooth and a menu as long as our local chinese take away. There are all sorts of technical settings for picture quality, focus and technical words I'v never heard before. My neck starts to tense up culminating in a tension headache just thinking about getting it out of the cupboard. So if my next post is full of expletives you'll know why..... oh and the might be a few swear words too.

Before I do that I'm interested in knowing what would have prompted the upgrade now. I presume electricians that do re-wires are required by the regulations to inform the DNO if the load carry capacity of the existing cabling may be inadequate for the new installation and that is what has prompted UK PN into action. Would that be correct? Mind you it has been a few months since the re-wiring was done.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Blue Duck]

They wanted a new fuse possibly for a electric shower? The guy who came out may have said oh no can't do that we need to change the supply? or the head is ancient and their sparky reported a dangerous situation?

 

[fatbob88]

Blue Duck, they had a major refurb done including central heating new kitchen, bathroom, walls and ceiling re-plastered and full re-wire about three and half months ago. New cables were chased in the walls and central heating pipes buried in the cement floors. The re-wire took place first and the guys that did the other work were part of the same outfit.

 

[misssweden]

Hi there.

Right, The "PILC" bit, in full, is "PILCSWA"

It stands for "paper insulated lead covered steel wire armoured" That refers to the type of cable they have used as the LV [low voltage] main in the street. So that is just showing you the location of their cable in the street.

Then, the instructions to the contractor, [the "electricity" people do not dig the hole themselves, the employ others to do the digging] mean; "dig a joint hole" [These are about a metre square] and then a five metre trench, and then, lay 7 metres of single phase service cable.

Obviously, the trench might be 5 metres long, but you need a spare bit at the ends to reach into the building to where the cutout is, and then another spare bit so the jointers can terminate the other end to the main, so 7 metres of cable.

They will just use their judgement as to the precise length, they are not daft!!. The next bit, the CNB2 is just telling them what type and size of service cable to use. This must be UKPN speak, as the cable is known as CNE and will be 25mm in size.

I do not mean 25mm diameter, it is the cross sectional area of the conductor in millimeters, [it is actually about 6 or 7mm in diameter], surrounded by the concentric neutral. [it is very much like telly aerial co-ax in construction] The actual overall diameter of the cable will only be about half an inch or so, maybe a fraction larger..

Now, the contractors will only dig up the pavement. The duct part means that the customer themselves, will have to dig up the floor inside the building and will also have to install a "hockey stick" [it is just a bent bit of plastic pipe] and the 32mm diameter ducting that will have to poke through the wall underground, out into the street. This needs to be installed to a depth of 450mm from the top of the duct to ground level.

What the contractors are expecting, is to dig the joint hole and the trench, and then at the end of the trench, next to the wall of the building, find the end of the duct that they can poke the cable through.

If when they get there, the customer has not installed the duct as instructed, [the dno usually provide it, the duct itself and the hockey stick I mean] the contractors will simply leave, and the customer will be billed for the wasted trip to site....

The jointers instructions are simply to joint the service cable onto the main at the one end, and to then terminate the other end to a new cutout where the old one is now, and to disconnect the old looped one.

Once again, they are not daft and know what has to be done. They do it all "live" too, wearing rubber gloves so as not to cut the power off. Sounds a bit hairy, but is easy when you know how!! Interesting to watch, so try to be there if you can. To joint onto the main will only take them about half an hour.

Finally, i doubt they will test your wiring, but if it looks unsafe, may well refuse to re-connect you until YOU have had it tested and given them a cert. This is VERY VERY unlikely though, the wiring would have to look ancient and/or like a halfwit had wired it.

They will not want to wander around your flat looking at it, they will just make their minds up from what they see from where it is connected to their bit. They will be looking for suitable provision for earthing and the like, and meter tails the right size and condition. It will be ok, so do not worry about that. They will just be in a mad rush to get it done and off to the next job.

What they will do, is to test THEIR finished job for ELI and polarity, so you will HAVE to be there at the time, as they will need to get to your cutout [that i presume is in your flat] to do this.

Most important thing is that when they get there, the ducting is properly installed....... but this is not your problem....

john...

Other than the single phase concentric is normally 35mm, you're pretty spot on. You should come and join the dark side, we have cookies...

 

[misssweden]

John, first of all thank you so much for your time to give me such a detailed reply. Great explanation for a layman such as myself.

So the 7 metres is the length of the run of the CNE from the street main up to and into my neighbours flat. It will be laid in the trench and fed through the 32 mm ducting which the neighbour is to have installed himself? So the CNE contains the live and neutral separated by an insulting material which saves having to run two cables everywhere?

Is the purpose of the joint hole to create the space for them to connect me up to the new cable using the existing cables coming into my flat. My cables come in through a piece of metal conduit protruding out of the floor which I presume is the old equivalent of the ducting they are asking my neighbour to install? 

How will my neighbour find the right person to install the ducting as it sound like it's a builders job but will a builder understand what my neighbour wants to achieve for UK PN? I suppose the way around it is for my neighbour to get a builder to meet up with UK PN when they come out to firm up on the job?  

The CNE service cable consists of an aluminium core which is the live conductor, a layer of insulation around it and then neutral consists of copper strands wrapped around the outside. All protected by a layer of XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene (I don't do spelling at the bes of times ) around the outside.

Most builders have an idea of what is needed, but your neighbour needs to make sure that the ducting is BLACK.

The joint hole is dug around the .1 PILC cable to give the jointers space to connect your new service cable to the mains. If you happen to be around when they are there, have a look what the cable looks like inside. PILC cables was manufactured before PVC was used to the insulation around the cores is made of oiled paper and it lasts for donkeys years. I opened up a PILC service cable from 1953 the other day and it was still in good condition.

 

[fatbob88]

The CNE service cable consists of an aluminium core which is the live conductor, a layer of insulation around it and then neutral consists of copper strands wrapped around the outside. All protected by a layer of XLPE (cross-linked polyethylene (I don't do spelling at the bes of times ) around the outside.

Most builders have an idea of what is needed, but your neighbour needs to make sure that the ducting is BLACK.

The joint hole is dug around the .1 PILC cable to give the jointers space to connect your new service cable to the mains. If you happen to be around when they are there, have a look what the cable looks like inside. PILC cables was manufactured before PVC was used to the insulation around the cores is made of oiled paper and it lasts for donkeys years. I opened up a PILC service cable from 1953 the other day and it was still in good condition.

Thank you for your input misssweden, very interesting. I will be around when they do they job assuming there is no charge as my neighbours wife seemed reluctant to want to pay out for it on the basis that they can't afford it at the moment. I would really like to know what prompted them to upgrade the fuse. UK PN said they had received an application from them so I don't think they have been reported as having an unsafe installation as I presume that would result in them receiving and official notice to comply . She's easy to talk to when it comes to things like this and you have to really interrogate her in order to get to the bottom of things. I find it embarrassing for her if you know what I mean so I will have to see if I can catch her husband in between his shifts. They had a shower installed, it's not electric and in a downstairs maisonette they will have had to have a shower pump installed so perhaps that is just one contributory factor. 

Will UK PN's main cable be under the pavement in the street or under the road? There is a street light on the pavement nearby, will this be on the same circuit? Is this just a days work?

Thanks

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Misssweden,

Now.... You never mentioned the cookies!!!! Where do i sign up!!!!!

john...