Moderator Rant? Or just drawing a line?

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Manator

©Honorary Essex Boy™
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Forums are a great place to air views and get some help and backup when needed. They are places where similar minded and dedicated people can sound off, relax, and be free from the normal stresses of everyday workloads.

Hidden behind user names many posters can big up their individual experience

 
What nobody has yet explained to me is WHY the forum "view" has suddenly changed in just a few months.

Last year, it was often discussed that the "seal fairy" visits the night before, you pull the main fuse to isolate then notify the DNO to come and re seal, all with a nod and a wink. Many people suggested that and no forum moderator complained.

Now, virtually everybody (except me it seems) says openly "it's illegal to do and I would not do it" (but still with an implied nod that I do it but don't admit to doing it)

So WHY and WHEN did the forum view change?

And if it really IS illegal, I am still waiting for someone to post a single case of an electrician being prosecuted for pulling the main fuse.

Indeed in previous discussions, it was even suggested that the need for safe isolation was a defence that would stand up in court.

As I understand it, it's a civil offence of "criminal damage" but all you have "damaged" is the seal. So are they going to take you to court for damaging a seal worth a few pence? That would get laughed out of court.

So until given some evidence that electricians ARE being prosecuted for pulling the main fuse, then I will continue doing so and am man enough to admit that I do it without having to hide behind a nod and a wink.

I am NOT advising you all to do it, you must make up your own minds what is safe and what YOU are competent to do, do your own risk assesment.

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST ARE THOSE OF FOURM MEMBER ProDave AND ARE NOT THE VIEWS OF TEF. THEREFORE THERE IS NO NEED TO EDIT OR DELETE THIS POST.

P.S I wasn't going to pursue this topic any more, but since you have invided discussion I just wanted to make my points, and hopefully get some explanation of why the forum mood has changed so drastically and suddenly.

 
mr smith finds himself fully in agreeance

with mr manator

all moderators are here to preserve the forums principles

and protect its members

in everyday life

the majority of day to day people

who have a grievance with the police force

are those wishing to bend or break the rules

the moderation team

perform the same duty here

please respect this

mr smith

 
Dear Moderators,

I hoe it is OK to post my comments with regard to the post by ProDave above.

I suspect however, that Manator did not start this thread to begin another discussion, in which case I apologise.

ProDave

Yes there is the civil issue of criminal damage, though as you say this would probably be laughed out of court, however, it is not my place to say that.

It is not allowed so there it must end.

The issue of not working live is another one.

You cannot safely change the tails whilst working live so you choose to tamper with the suppliers equipment by pulling the main fuse after cutting the seal whcih we have already established is not allowed, which it seems you admit, but do not agree with.

You will probably find that it is against the law to for you to pull the fuse as at this point you are working live on the DNO equipment, aka the National Grid effectively.

You will find that this is prohibited under ESQCR.

It is also as far as I know against the law to tamper with metering suppliers equipment.

This is linked to ESQCR & the laws on Abstraction.

Thus you are not allowed to cut meter seals to change the tails from the meter to the CU.

Other than to isolate the supply there should be no reason to cut the seal and pull the fuse.

A request can and should be made to the DNO or electricity supplier to isolate, or for them to install a local isolation switch.

If you are cutting meter seals then you may fall foul of the metering operators.

Yes this is difficult to prove.

There may be no case history.

Depending on which offence you are charged with, then the case may be civil, in which instance, it will be based on case law, perhaps, or it may set a precedent, SteveT will probably be along in a bit to explain the nuances of the legal system. This would be brought by the DNO/Metering Operator/Supplier.

However, if it is H&S law or an offence under ESQCR with which you are charged then the case will be Regina Vs ProDave!

In the case of H&S law the burden of proof is reversed, it will be for you to prove that you are innocent by showing that you have done all that is reasonably practicable to mitigate the possibility of any harm.

Anyway, the tails from the cut out to the meter are the property of the DNO/metering operator, it is only the tails from the meter to the CU that are the property of the consumer. For a "normal" supply anyway.

Thus to change these you have to tamper with the metering equipment as well as the DNO equipment, you should not be changing tails from the cut out to the meter under any circumstances.

All this goes out the window, if you have written authorisation from your DNO to work on their kit and have been issued with a means of informing them / re sealing.

What I would do depends on the situation.

In the event of danger to property or life, I WOULD cut the seal and pull the fuse, yes.

For planned work, I plan things according to the work.

Please remember that for a simple domestic install the section of cabling you are re-energising when replacing the fuse is probably, or should be all visible from your location. Also all loads should be isolated. For more complex industrial or commercial installations this may not be the case.

You may not be able to isolate all loads, pfc, standby battery chargers etc. there may be a latent defect in the main switch gear.

The problem is once it is advocated in a public place that this is OK then persons of unknown competence may take this on board and start doing this on domestics, then small commercials, then large commercials, then... there may be an incident.

This is why I feel that it is in appropriate to publically advocate or suggest this, I do not know the competence of all of the readers.

Appologies to the mod team once again of this post is considered inappropriate.

 
You have to consider that our comments on any thread, could encourage those with insufficient knowledge or experience to attempt something that could endanger their lives and/ or property. That said, people are free to accept or disregard any advice or information they receive on here.

 
Hi ProDave, a minor point, Criminal Damage of any kind is a criminal offence as opposed to a civil wrong doing. This of course does not preclude a Private prosecutiion where the CPS may decline to prosecute for various reasons. Many bodies, and the odd individual, do bring Criminal Prosecutions, it is only the prosecutor that changes not the offence, if found guilty of damaging the seal you will get a criminal record, although as to the 'Seal Fairy', I am fully on your side of the arguement!

 
It is tampering with the DNO's equipment which is protected by law however you are protecting property and life by pulling the main fuse so you can work safely on an isolated installation. As I see it if you price for a consumer unit change then you should arrange for the DNO to fit a DP isolator switch between the meter and the CU , this is usually done free of charge as they don't want you pulling fuses and you need to work safely. On the other hand you could get called to an emergency situation that you needed to pull the main fuse. I do a risk assessment before any job and would sooner face some awkward questions from the DNO than leaving my sons without a dad. My safety comes first!! I'm aware of the legal side of the DNO's equipment and I respect that but it is all down to common sense rather than just having a gung ho approach.I have spoken to a couple of lads from EON in the past and they are more concerned about seals missing from the meter itself rather than the main fuse ones as they appreciate safe isolation hence the fitting of DP isolators nowadays. We all know what's right and wrong and have our reasons for doing what we do but as professional electricians we still need to work safely as best we can without taking uneccessary risks.

 
I agree with sidewinders post on the fuse issue......

the issue i have is that lots of stuff and advice is given to 'students' who are going through college etc and have a certain electrical understanding.

i worry about the onlooker diyers who pick up info to do a job which they are not legally allowed to do in someone elses home.

there is a whole can of worms waiting to be opened

maybe we should have disclaimer on the home page stating that all elctrical work must be carried out by a suitably qualified electrician

As Pro Dave has said 12 months ago we wernt worried about seal fairies.

 
What nobody has yet explained to me is WHY the forum "view" has suddenly changed in just a few months.Last year, it was often discussed that the "seal fairy" visits the night before, you pull the main fuse to isolate then notify the DNO to come and re seal, all with a nod and a wink. Many people suggested that and no forum moderator complained.

Now, virtually everybody (except me it seems) says openly "it's illegal to do and I would not do it" (but still with an implied nod that I do it but don't admit to doing it)

So WHY and WHEN did the forum view change?

And if it really IS illegal, I am still waiting for someone to post a single case of an electrician being prosecuted for pulling the main fuse.

Indeed in previous discussions, it was even suggested that the need for safe isolation was a defence that would stand up in court.

As I understand it, it's a civil offence of "criminal damage" but all you have "damaged" is the seal. So are they going to take you to court for damaging a seal worth a few pence? That would get laughed out of court.

So until given some evidence that electricians ARE being prosecuted for pulling the main fuse, then I will continue doing so and am man enough to admit that I do it without having to hide behind a nod and a wink.

I am NOT advising you all to do it, you must make up your own minds what is safe and what YOU are competent to do, do your own risk assesment.

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED IN THIS POST ARE THOSE OF FOURM MEMBER ProDave AND ARE NOT THE VIEWS OF TEF. THEREFORE THERE IS NO NEED TO EDIT OR DELETE THIS POST.

P.S I wasn't going to pursue this topic any more, but since you have invided discussion I just wanted to make my points, and hopefully get some explanation of why the forum mood has changed so drastically and suddenly.
Hello ProDave.

Thank you for your input to the forum, you raise some interesting points, and your contributions are welcomed. For the forum to succeed and develop, the threads need interesting debate and we do need members to ask questions such as yours. I will attempt to answer your questions as best as I can.

Moderation

Whilst impractical to vet the content of every post, I do like to think that Admin & the Moderation team read a large percentage of all posts made. When issues are open to opinion, providing both sides are equally debated within a thread, (in a polite manner), often the moderation team will leave the thread with no further comment. We will not start reading and marking all threads or posts as approved or unapproved like schoolteachers.

Forum View

It is my opinion that the forum view has remained relatively constant over the years. Using the search facility anyone can look back and find a sample of threads which relate to Cut outs, Seals, Main fuses.

Oct 08

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/useful-links-page/1697-how-do-i-isolate-meter-tails-change-consumer-unit.html

Nov 08

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/1984-main-isolator-switch-where-does-go.html

Feb 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/3011-seal-no-seal.html

July 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk/4858-meter-seals.html

Nov 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk/6787-cutting-dreaded.html

March 10

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/8985-pull-mainfuse.html

April 10

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/9415-distribution-network-operator-main-fuse.html

A quick skim read of the above threads gives various situations relating approved and unapproved methods of accessing suppliers cut-out. But in all cases numerous members have given both sides of the debate. Where another member has clearly indicated the illegal and hazardous nature of removing suppliers fuses, the Moderators have considered this sufficient guidance.

What Has Changed

Everyone in the electrical industry knows how they would like things to work and the gulf between practical reality and official guidance. Also most professional electricians will also know that this meter seals and connecting CU tails issue has been recently debated between DNO

 
Forum ViewIt is my opinion that the forum view has remained relatively constant over the years. Using the search facility anyone can look back and find a sample of threads which relate to Cut outs, Seals, Main fuses.

Oct 08

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/useful-links-page/1697-how-do-i-isolate-meter-tails-change-consumer-unit.html

Nov 08

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/1984-main-isolator-switch-where-does-go.html

Feb 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/3011-seal-no-seal.html

July 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk/4858-meter-seals.html

Nov 09

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/electrician-talk/6787-cutting-dreaded.html

March 10

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/8985-pull-mainfuse.html

April 10

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/9415-distribution-network-operator-main-fuse.html

A quick skim read of the above threads gives various situations relating approved and unapproved methods of accessing suppliers cut-out. But in all cases numerous members have given both sides of the debate. Where another member has clearly indicated the illegal and hazardous nature of removing suppliers fuses, the Moderators have considered this sufficient guidance.

I assume your views pivot around the content of this recent thread?

March 11

http://www.talk.electricianforum.co.uk/question-answer-board/14280-service-cutout-fuse.html
You have done a very good job of highlighting my concerns. There is a string of threads on the subject, discussing both sides of the argument with no moderator intervention.

Then the recent thread, where almost everyone is saying very strongly that pulling the main fuse is illegal and unsafe, and the moderators jumping on and editing the few posts that suggested pulling the main fuse is okay.

See my concern? the rapid change in forum members opinions, and the intervention my moderators to the few posts suggesting it's okay to pull the fuse?

That smacks to me of somebody has been leaning of the forum to make sure they give the "correct" advice.

I do hope that the reason was, as stated, that in this one case that action was taken, purely because the question was asked by a new member of unknown skills and ability.

Now lets try and turn this debate around into something more positive. Why is it, we electricians tolerate the situation we are in, where in a vast number of cases there is no safe way to isolate to do our job?

You don't hear of gas installers doing anything dodgy to isolate a gas supply to work on it? That's because a gas installation is designed with an isolating valve that is not sealed and is there to be used to isolate the installation for safe working.

So why is it, we put up with a situation where there is no legal means to safely isolate for a major job like a CU change?

The situation would be okay, IF all DNO's had a department you could contact directly to request an isolation, and they would make an appointment and come when they say to isolate the supply for you. That would have to be a system where you spoke directly to someone who knows what you are requesting, and does not raise an issue when the energy supplier and the DNO are different companies, and does not try to pass the request from one to the other denying responsibility.

The present system is unworkable in some areas as can be seen by the trouble some people have getting pushed from energy supplier to DNO with neither understanding what's required.

I thought the industry was moving to a "better" system with a lot of DNO's installing meters with built in isolators, but then one thread said one DNO had stopped doing that as it encouraged DIY'ers to inappropriately isolate.

My own experience with my local DNO is positive. I have met the "guys on the ground" many times, and they know I pull the main fuse and have told me they are happy with this, providing I inform them to go and re seal the fuse, which is why I continue to do it, and say that's the way I do it. But apparently not all take that view and some are dead against it.

So why are all the scam providers and the IET not combining their efforts and lobbying the industry to change?

What is needed is either an isolator fitted by the DNO on EVERY installation, or a system that electricians can access to book the DNO to come and isolate for them, and the DNO will do so without protest, in a timely manner, and without unreasonable charge.

Until there is some change in the industry, we will continue to have this issue, with huge differences in how to do it depending on where you are, and therefore with lots of different opinions on what is right and wrong from different forum members.

 
The reason is just as you have said, one reason why moderation of the thread was done is two fold, firstly it would be wrong to suggest to a new or inexperianced electrician to pull the fuse, and secondly because of the discussions over the last two years involving the DNO's and the scheme providers it did very nearly look like authority to pull the fuse would be given. Electricians were invited to ask the DNO for a temporary disconnection and if given the runaround from the DNO report it to the scheme provider, this reporting of delays and or unhelpfull DNO actions would have helped to persuade the DNO,s of their failings. Whilst these discussions were taking place the forum did take the veiw that it was illegal to interfere with the seal, but was relaxed in the postings of such providing no poster advised it as an option. More often than not reference was made to the seal fairy, which implied, but did not actually state the act.

There has been no pressure from any source to alter the way the forum is run, everyone is free to post any veiw, providing it does not endanger themselves or any other person.

 
Please forgive me for asking, putting aside any legalities/illegalities for a moment, but what is so dangerous about pulling one of these fuses? Physically I mean?
That is for you to decide with your own risk assessment of the situation taking into account your own abilities and competence.

IF it's a modern cut out, in good condition, AND you turn off the CU's connected, so no current is being drawn, then IMO there is little risk and I believe I am competent to pull the fuse, but you must all make up your own mind for each individual situation.

NEVER pull a fuse with the CU turned on, so it could be drawing current so there's the risk of arcing.

NEVER pull a fuse if the cut out is old or damaged. There are some types of old metal cased cut outs that can be very dangerous to pull the fuse from, and I never touch those, that is definitely a case for the DNO to come and check it and isolate for you.

Then there is the live exposed terminal inside the cut out once the fuse is removed. Although it should be obvious, I'll state it here that there is a live exposed terminal once the fuse is pulled that you must never ever touch.

While doing your work, which may be fitting new tails for a CU change, take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the tails you are fitting cannot touch that live terminal inside the cut out.

One possible way with some cut outs, is to remove the fuse cartridge, and then re insert the now empty fuse carrier. That will protect the exposed live terminal, while preserving isolation. If you can do that you should.

Again, don't do anything that you are not 100% sure about and 100% competent to do. If you have doubts or concerns about the safety of what you are proposing, then don't do it.

 
ProDave,

One comment, you need to be sufficiently competent to identify the possible hazards in order to complete the risk assessment in the first place!

I suspect that the reason few people advocate this work is the same argument here really, that is lack of full understanding of the possible hazards.

We don't know the competence of all of the audience such that they are even sufficiently competent to complete a suitable and sufficient risk assessment of the work that is to be done at the DNO cut out.

Around here - WPD, if they open up a cut out then this is a 2 man job such that they have a competent person at hand in the event of an "issue".

 
That is for you to decide with your own risk assessment of the situation taking into account your own abilities and competence.IF it's a modern cut out, in good condition, AND you turn off the CU's connected, so no current is being drawn, then IMO there is little risk and I believe I am competent to pull the fuse, but you must all make up your own mind for each individual situation.

NEVER pull a fuse with the CU turned on, so it could be drawing current so there's the risk of arcing.

NEVER pull a fuse if the cut out is old or damaged. There are some types of old metal cased cut outs that can be very dangerous to pull the fuse from, and I never touch those, that is definitely a case for the DNO to come and check it and isolate for you.

Then there is the live exposed terminal inside the cut out once the fuse is removed. Although it should be obvious, I'll state it here that there is a live exposed terminal once the fuse is pulled that you must never ever touch.

While doing your work, which may be fitting new tails for a CU change, take whatever steps are necessary to ensure the tails you are fitting cannot touch that live terminal inside the cut out.

One possible way with some cut outs, is to remove the fuse cartridge, and then re insert the now empty fuse carrier. That will protect the exposed live terminal, while preserving isolation. If you can do that you should.

Again, don't do anything that you are not 100% sure about and 100% competent to do. If you have doubts or concerns about the safety of what you are proposing, then don't do it.
I have put a like against this statement, not because you admit to pulling a fuse but the fact that you have pointed out the dangers in doing so, this is a more balanced way of posting, and would be more suitable than an all out flat statement.

 
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