Moderator Rant? Or just drawing a line?

[ProDave]

The correct procedure; Ian, has been posted on here numerous times already - Phone your DNO and ask them to come out and do it. Plain and simple!

And some people have posted the response, varying from complete lack of understanding what you are on about, to being pushed from DNO to energy supplier both denying it's their job.

Some DNO's are good, others are not, and I argue a system should be put in place where there is a dedicated phone number for temporary disconnections where you will be dealt with promptly and courteously and there won't be any unreasonable charges.

Until that happens, some people will continue to find getting a temporary disconnection very hard, so will continue to "make their own arrangements"

If it was as easy as you say in all areas, there would be no need for seal fairies etc.

Why is the IET etc not pushing the industry to sort this mess out?

 

[m4tty]

I agree with prodave. If you follow the rules you'll get the runaround and won't be in business that long.

 

[ianmacd]

The correct procedure; Ian, has been posted on here numerous times already - Phone your DNO and ask them to come out and do it. Plain and simple!

Again you are completely missing the point I am making. The procedure is irrelevant to my point as is even the act.

Just because an act is unlawful does not make discussing or publishing a procedure unlawful. I can not understand why so many people can not understand the difference there. Its not subtle.

You CAN NOT moderate and hide behind your T&C's on unlawful publishing when its not unlawful.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

And some people have posted the response, varying from complete lack of understanding what you are on about, to being pushed from DNO to energy supplier both denying it's their job.Some DNO's are good, others are not, and I argue a system should be put in place where there is a dedicated phone number for temporary disconnections where you will be dealt with promptly and courteously and there won't be any unreasonable charges.

Until that happens, some people will continue to find getting a temporary disconnection very hard, so will continue to "make their own arrangements"

If it was as easy as you say in all areas, there would be no need for seal fairies etc.

Why is the IET etc not pushing the industry to sort this mess out?

Perhaps its more of a chicken or the egg needing to come first...

Consider for example;

(a)

IF more electricians were regularly calling their DNO's for temp disconnects

AND writing formal complaints if (and when) they don't get a suitable level of service or response time etc..

then maybe the DNO's would improve the service they offer...

(B)

If very few electricians follow the formal DNO procedure then the DNO's think not much point in putting any time and money into improving this aspect of our service cuz we only get 1 call every 2 months!?

It reminds me of the old rural bus service conundrum..

Poor rural bus service because there aren't enough customers..

But there are very few customers because the rural bus service is poor!

Who has to make the first move?

Question..

How many of those moaning about this issue have actually written to the top man at there local supply company?

As Manator has mentioned if you build up a good relationship with your DNO you will get better service than if you are an infrequent caller...

You can argue as much as you want on forums like this but that will do jack all IMHO..

The forum IS not the body that can change the rules..

All that we as forum members have to decide is..

Do we pass on good sound experienced electrical guidance to the members asking questions..

Or just make up what we want picking and choosing the bits we agree with and ignoring the industry guidance on the bits we don't! :|

As this very topic has been discussed and debated during the past 12-18 months, just cuz you don't like the answer doesn't mean that you can ignore the guidance.

I like to think that myself and other experienced forum members pass on knowledge, through our posts, that can be backed up by formal regulations, HSE law, ESQCR law, and other similar guidance given by the various electrical contracting bodies...

so..

Why does anyone think that the forum should be promoting a procedure that clearly goes against recognised industry published guidance????

What I do and how I go about my work is up to me and I will have to stand up and take account for any problems that arise if I choose to disregard written safe working practice.....

I do not post on the forum everything that I do whist carrying out my work..

Somethings are my risks and my choice, not good guidance for other to follow...

e.g.

I will on occasions work up a ladder on my own with no safety restraints or anyone supporting the ladder etc..

I have on occasions worked outside in the rain with a 230v hand held power tool plugged into an extension lead exposed to the weather etc..

I have on occasion worked in a loft shifting insulation without any face mask giving any dust protection etc..

I would NEVER suggest to anyone that doing any of these things is good advice!! :|

As with removing the suppliers cut out fuse especially when such advice can easily be contradicted in documents such as:-

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/switched_on/SwitchedOn-Issue-17.pdf

Article bottom of page 7, which also refers to guidance found here:-

www.dcusa.co.uk/Public/Viewdocument.aspx?id=2303

DCUSA FAQ Document06 April 2010 V 1.0

De-Energisation - Frequently Asked Questions

1. Scope

This advice is intended for competent electricians working on domestic or small

commercial installations with single or three phase supplies, fused up to 100amp. The

advice is applicable to the majority of installations. If there are any exceptional

arrangements or concerns that the advice is not applicable then please contact the

relevant electricity Supplier for specific advice. The cut-out and metering equipment

should not be interfered with by electricians.

It is all rather BLACK and WHITE guidance in my opinion..

and should the brown botty stuff hit the air movement and cooling device..

I don't think many would have a leg to stand on if someone did decide to prosecute?

Whether you are legally allowed to discuss it or not I don't give two hoots..

The fact is Industry guidance says DON'T DO IT!

:coffee :coffee

 

[a1]

Some DNO's are good, others are not, and I argue a system should be put in place where there is a dedicated phone number for temporary disconnections where you will be dealt with promptly and courteously and there won't be any unreasonable charges.

I agree with what you are saying there, Ian - But as Specs as mentioned above my post here, complaining on here instead of complaining to the DNOs is not going to get you you what you need!

You say "You can't hide behind your T&Cs" - I don't hide behind them - they are there for a reason and you agreed to them, like everyone else, when you registered. And if that was the case, and someone posted something illegal, action would be taken! And what are they going to say? "You can't hide behind your T&Cs" like you did?

I agree with prodave. If you follow the rules you'll get the runaround and won't be in business that long.

Many sparks do things they shouldn't - Fact! somethings are better, not discussed on an open, public forum.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was made at 12:55 ----------

And also, if I was discussing making a bomb and said my intentions of what I was going to about it - do you really think that, those in power would just sit back and let me get on with it? I think not.

And besides, I haven't deleted any threads or posts where someone mentions the "seal fairies", Mods have just added a line to say that the forum would not condone it. Ther's nothing wrong with that - as that is the truth.

 

[m4tty]

I agree with what you are saying there, Ian - But as Specs as mentioned above my post here, complaining on here instead of complaining to the DNOs is not going to get you you what you need!You say "You can't hide behind your T&Cs" - I don't hide behind them - they are there for a reason and you agreed to them, like everyone else, when you registered. And if that was the case, and someone posted something illegal, action would be taken! And what are they going to say? "You can't hide behind your T&Cs" like you did?

Many sparks do things they shouldn't - Fact! somethings are better, not discussed on an open, public forum.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was made at 12:55 ----------

And also, if I was discussing making a bomb and said my intentions of what I was going to about it - do you really think that, those in power would just sit back and let me get on with it? I think not.

And besides, I haven't deleted any threads or posts where someone mentions the "seal fairies", Mods have just added a line to say that the forum would not condone it. Ther's nothing wrong with that - as that is the truth.

I was going to start a poll to see how many out there have actually pulled a sealed mainfuse illegally but theres no point is there as i think everyones done it at some point. But see where everyone is coming from so ill stay out of it lol

 

[ianmacd]

Admin, I never indicated you personally were hiding behind them but at least one of the other Mods erroneously believed they could.

Not sure if your initial comments were aimed at me or the text quoted from prodave.

I do not want to get into the specific argument about seal fairies etc.. though but I will say that I always try and contact supplier prior to get permission and that in the most part if forthcoming although you do get the run around mainly due to lack of understanding on the operators front.

 

[a1]

I have either quoted the text or have used the name - when I replied, above, Ian.

No Mods "hide" behind the T&Cs - they do a sterling job on here. I am sure you can see that?!

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was made at 14:11 ----------

Also Ian, I have e-mailed each DNO asking about a dedicated department/phone number and asked them if they have already or plan to, have this.

If they have, I have asked for a number to post on this here forum.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was made at 14:13 ----------

Reply number one from good old Western Power Distribution (WPD)...

Good afternoon,

​

Thank you for your e-mail. I am sorry to hear that electricians find it difficult to know who to ring in order to arrange for a temporary disconnection. If the work is for a disconnection and reconnection on the same day then this work would be carried out by us for South Wales and South West of England. The correct numbers are listed below and the electrician would raise an enquiry with our contact centre who would then pass the information on to the local office.

​

If the temporary disconnection is for more than 1 day this is dealt with by the customers supplier.

​

South Wales general enquiry number 0845 601 3341

South West general enquiry number 0845 601 2989

​

Regards

Si

​

 

[ianmacd]

I have either quoted the text or have used the name - when I replied, above, Ian.No Mods "hide" behind the T&Cs - they do a sterling job on here. I am sure you can see that?!

I am not trying to add any weight either way to the underlying issue that was concerned but I felt the following part of a post needed a response. I have extracted the relevant part

By using the forum you agree not to discuss illegal activities and furthermore you consent to us deleting, locking or editing your posts as we see fit.

There is nothing in your T&C's that says we can not discuss illegal activity (as I have stated repeatedly), nor is there anything that states (and therefore users agree with) you can delete, lock or edit posts as an individual sees fit. On the contrary, since the forum moderators are not a single entity, it should be via comity to comply with your own T&C's. Maybe this was badly worded but it raised alarm bells with me as being almost Draconian.

Additionally, when editing a users post, you (the moderators) need to ensure its done in such a way as to be clear what was changes were made otherwise you could be contravening your own T&C's with respect to "impersonate any person or entity for the purpose of misleading others".

The mods do a great job here and I do not think anyone would disagree with that, butI personally felt the above was a bit too emotional and less un-biased as the usual high standards and as such could undermine the values and ideals the mods work to.

Also Ian, I have e-mailed each DNO asking about a dedicated department/phone number and asked them if they have already or plan to, have this.

If they have, I have asked for a number to post on this here forum.

Thats a great idea. Can I suggest its in a sticky thread in the password protected part?

 

[a1]

Ian, I can place a heck of a lot of things in the T&Cs. But the T&Cs cover a lot of things (as they stand) - and rather than putting everything in there, I (perhaps wrongly) assumed common sense would prevail.

I suppose McD's and other chains thought the same, before someone successfully sued one chain when they tipped their hot drink over them - the reason it was successfull - Because the cup didn't have the "Hot" contents warning on it. Again - common sense thing.

I would sticky it - but it don't think it would be in the password protected area as not everyone has access to it. (I plan to do a clickable map image of DNOs and their contact details - so yes, I think it would be better in the "Password Protected Area", actually.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was made at 14:50 ----------

In fact - if I had cash, I would have had all the DNOs names and numbers printed off onto a laminated form (like the NICEIC handy cards) and all sparks could have had one sent to them. (small fee applies).

I haven't, but I will do it as soon as I get some spare cash.

 

[ianmacd]

Donation time again

 

[Doc Hudson]

Can I just put a summary of this thread from a Moderators point of view.

It was not primarily about what the T&C's allow us to discuss, rather about removal of suppliers main fuse and ProDave's question that the forum's "view" had changed. Back around 2009 - 2010 it was general knowledge that the subject was under debate within the electrical industry, hints that a permission may be given were on the cards, as such the forum was waiting for a definitive answer along with everyone else. However we all now know that permission has not be given, so the forum will treat this as the standard guidance up until such time as it changes.

Irrespective of exact wording of the T&C's, guidance posted should be accurate and correct in accordance with standards and recognised safe working practice. Otherwise there is little point in anyone coming here for any help or advice! I don't believe any moderators claim to have superior knowledge about topics discussed and we are very grateful to the input and self moderation by all of our members. (If we do make any mistakes we are sorry).

However it has been true for many years that the suppliers equipment belongs to the supplier and customers equipment belongs to customer. It is not difficult to see where the boundary lies, or who has authority to say what can or cannot be done to their equipment. As such the forum has a duty to make sure this is clear over and above any non-standard practices that may or may not go on.

Doc H.

 

[a1]

Reply number two - Scottish and Southern Energy (SSE)...

(I have added a link to the important PDF Document - as this was emailed as an attachment to me)...

Hello,

I am sorry your members have been struggling to contact Southern Electric Power Distribution and understand the temporary disconnection procedure.

Southern Electric Power Distribution have been working hard to make the process easy to follow in the shortest time possible.

The below document details the process for Southern Electric Power Distribution in relation to temporary disconnections; In short, we allow any electrician that is a member of the below trade associations to break our seals and remove our cut-out fuse. The qualified electrician only needs to inform us before they carry out the temporary disconnection so we can add a note to the customer account for audit purposes and for the electrician to be provided the address of our local Depot to obtain the self-adhesive labels that need to be stuck to the cut-out.

The document should be read in full as it also details when a qualified electrician must not touch the seals or cut-out in the event of interference or potential interference .

• The National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting (NICEIC)
  
• The Electrical Contractors' Association (ECA)
  
• The Electrical Contractors' Association of Scotland (SELECT)
  
• National Association of Professional Inspectors and Testers (NAPIT).
  

We have a dedicated line for all electricians to call and inform us they want to break our seals and remove our cut-out fuse.

Southern Electric Power Distribution 0800 0483516

Scottish Hydro Electric 0800 300999

PROCEDURE FOR THE REMOVAL AND REPLACEMENT OF COMPANY CUT-OUT SEALS BY ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS

 

[ianmacd]

Now thats a good idea although I have asked Elecsa about their members seeming to be excluded from this program.

 

[Manator]

Now thats a good idea although I have asked Elecsa about their members seeming to be excluded from this program.

I think you may come under the ECA, but would check first.

 

[Theorysparky]

We do !!!!!!

 

[ianmacd]

Unless they search the ECA members DB then we dont

 

[Sidewinder]

Ian,

ELECSA is the "PartP" arm of the ECA.

They bought out ELECSA rather than set up their own branch, plus ELECSA was in trouble.

If you look at the ELECSA logo this parentage is obvious.

The DNO's will know this.

Admin,

Excellent work as usual!!!

However, I would not waste your funds on the physical card thing, just do what you do so well, and keep this place running the way it is!!!

With regard to the IET contribution to the debate, the majority of IET members will not be practising electricians thus this situation will have little affect on them.

Their input has been made to the ESC investigation into this situation.

You will find that NO professional institute will condone illegal behaviour.

 

[ianmacd]

Ian,ELECSA is the "PartP" arm of the ECA.

They bought out ELECSA rather than set up their own branch, plus ELECSA was in trouble.

If you look at the ELECSA logo this parentage is obvious.

The DNO's will know this.

Of course they will but in the PDF it says:

5 MEMBERSHIP INFORMATION5.1 The Trade Associations membership rolls are available on the Trade Association web site.

And I am NOT on the ECA's web site in their members search as I am not an ECA member. Anyone else with ELECSA on there despite not being ECA members?

 

[m4tty]

I'm not on there Ian