My first EICR

[park1]

So everything is at the same potential as the electrical earth, not better not worse.

Ok Steve, so if we are using ads we need to meet disconnection times and bonding to limit magnitude.

Ok, a tncs system, a touch voltage with bonding is 105 volts, without bonding its 120 volts for a duration of 0.1 of a second. So a code 2 for the increase in risk.

Outside its the same as no bonding, surrounded by zero potential, so again 120 volts for 0.1 secs, the risk is the same.

If we assume it may be wet then the risk is even greater than no bonding.

Still a code 3?

 

[Steve3948]

So everything is at the same potential as the electrical earth, not better not worse.

Ok Steve, so if we are using ads we need to meet disconnection times and bonding to limit magnitude.

Ok, a tncs system, a touch voltage with bonding is 105 volts, without bonding its 120 volts for a duration of 0.1 of a second. So a code 2 for the increase in risk.

Outside its the same as no bonding, surrounded by zero potential, so again 120 volts for 0.1 secs, the risk is the same.

If we assume it may be wet then the risk is even greater than no bonding.

Still a code 3?

My post above said Code 2 ?

 

[SteveT]

Went to a pub last week, following PIR by some numpty some time ago, rated 'unsatisfactory'

22 x 2's here is a sample (there were some two's and unsatifactory should have been the correct result)

Tails 16mm 2 (30 year old install + not a great draw + 80A main fuse)

No two colour lables 2 (all cabling R+BK in any case)

BD's not labled with ID 2

No last inspect lable 2

Two METs 2 (side by side clearly identifiable and linked, this was sic; 'dangerous')

Sockets painted 2 (work without prob, no paint in sockets)

other sockets old! 2 (suggested replacing!)

Some lamps blown 2

RCD socket already on RCD protected cct 2

No cct diagrams 2

Isolator in cellar hanging off wall 2 (nearly correct, but isolator had no feed, is redundant, not mentioned!)

Another bone of contention, form was filled in with atrocious handwriting, with corrections and crossings out, if your writing is bad use a computer!! and if you do write by hand, initial any coerrections at least! (Although I always believed all forms should have no corrections)

The whole job looked unproffesional

First thing, delete the crap

Next put required lables on all 3x DB and id'd DB1, etc(two minutes work!)

Lots of ccts, points unID'd so apprentice went round all the points putting nice little lables on (ie DB1/2) (40 minutes)

So in in kess than an hour we know exactly where everything is, what feeds what including two storey miasonette above

At home produced an A4 chart of all ccts (1 Hour)

I don't nknow how you guys organise an EICR, but I allow for simple remedials in my initial price, ie labling of DB's, ccts on board, , these take minutes because we have to id ccts to test, with my my labling machine I can produce a single MCB, RCD id strip in about 4 minutes.

Upgrade a simple earth, usually half a metre of 16mm, if bonding is inadequate and is close to board ie no floorboard lifting or more than a couple of meters, replace.

We are half way through as pub needed to open so two days for this one

 

[Steve3948]

Perhaps he thought there was only one Code 2

 

[park1]

My post above said Code 2 ?

Steve I'm referring to pose 33,39, no rcd code 3.

My example shows there is a greater risk of electric shock outdoors, you would code no bonding as a 2, no rcd as a 3 yet the risk is higher in this case.

 

[Steve3948]

Steve I'm referring to pose 33,39, no rcd code 3.My example shows there is a greater risk of electric shock outdoors, you would code no bonding as a 2, no rcd as a 3 yet the risk is higher in this case.

Hang on, we are talking about an installation indoors, inside the Faraday Cage, we do not know what will happen outside it could be nothing or it could be every appliance made out there, that's why we must assess each and every installation we are involved with.

We are carrying EICR and the last two letters Condition Report, we are not the Electrical Police.

I'm not concerned with outdoors, unless I have supplied out there, I will advise the client if they have no RCD protection and they intend to use appliances outside then they need to have some form of RCD protection be it at fuseboard, socket or plug.

Indoors if its likely to become live it should be bonded, if it's all plastic then no need, again each job is different to the next.

Is the RCD secondary protection or primary, all makes a difference.

 

[professional]

ESC best practice guide 4 pages 12-13:

Examples of the use of Classification Codes

Code C2 (Potentially dangerous): Absence of RCD protection for portable or mobile equipment that may reasonably be expected to be used outdoors.

 

[Steve3948]

ESC best practice guide 4 pages 12-13: Examples of the use of Classification Codes

Code C2 (Potentially dangerous): Absence of RCD protection for portable or mobile equipment that may reasonably be expected to be used outdoors.

Pro, see my post 42, page 15 ESC best practice guide 4.

Code C3 (improvement recommended): Absence of RCD for a socket-outlet that is unlikely to supply portable or mobile equipment for use outdoors.

Grey area, they may not have any equipment designed for outdoor use, they may have a RCD socket in the garage which they use, they may have RCD plugs. It may well be Code 2 if none of the other apply but could also be Code 3.

 

[professional]

If a socket outlet is not RCD protected and no other provision is made for supplying outdoor equipment it unreasonable to code it as a code 3.

 

[Steve3948]

If a socket outlet is not RCD protected and no other provision is made for supplying outdoor equipment it unreasonable to code it as a code 3.

Totally agree

 

[professional]

Pro, see my post 42, page 15 ESC best practice guide 4.Code C3 (improvement recommended): Absence of RCD for a socket-outlet that is unlikely to supply portable or mobile equipment for use outdoors.

Grey area, they may not have any equipment designed for outdoor use, they may have a RCD socket in the garage which they use, they may have RCD plugs. It may well be Code 2 if none of the other apply but could also be Code 3.

That is irrelevant - the point is that if socket outlets are positioned so that they may, if desired, be used to supply portable equipment outdoors then lack of rcd protection is a Code 2 - hence the condition of the installation will be deemed "Unsatisfactory" on an EICR.

If, however, there is a socket outlet at, say, the front and back doors, I could be argued that provision has been made - but without suitable and appropriate instructions to anyone likely to use the socket outlets for such purposes, then it would STILL be a Code 2.

I have heard the pathetic excuse of "well there`s an RCD protected socket by the back door leading onto the garden" so many times, yet no label is evident instructing people to connect outdoor portable equipment to that socket ONLY.

If you want to make excuses for questionable installations, you`d better be damned well sure of what you are doing ....

 

[Steve3948]

I have heard the pathetic excuse of "well there`s an RCD protected socket by the back door leading onto the garden" so many times, yet no label is evident instructing people to connect outdoor portable equipment to that socket ONLY.

It cannot be a pathetic excuse when it was the previous requirement of the 15th Edition Regulations. :C

 

[steptoe]

^^what was?

the requirement to provide RCD protection for sockets likely to be used outdoors?

 

[Steve3948]

^^what was?the requirement to provide RCD protection for sockets likely to be used outdoors?

To provide a RCD socket outlet that could be used for outdoor use.

Back in the 80's that's when the manufactures started knocking them out.

Or was it 14th Edition ?

 

[steptoe]

To provide a RCD socket outlet that could be used for outdoor use.Back in the 80's that's when the manufactures started knocking them out.

Or was it 14th Edition ?

deffo wasnt 14th,

BUT, it must be labelled accordingly, and we were always made to label at the CU also,

if, during a PIR, NO labels are present, then it requires coding accordingly.

 

[Steve3948]

deffo wasnt 14th, BUT, it must be labelled accordingly, and we were always made to label at the CU also,

if, during a PIR, NO labels are present, then it requires coding accordingly.

Yeah, I agree, it was 15th and like you say labelled both ends.

 

[park1]

Hang on, we are talking about an installation indoors, inside the Faraday Cage, we do not know what will happen outside it could be nothing or it could be every appliance made out there, that's why we must assess each and every installation we are involved with.We are carrying EICR and the last two letters Condition Report, we are not the Electrical Police.

The installation must be safe for continued service, your report is based upon the latest version of BS 7671 which has identified the increased risk of electric shock outdoors.

I'm not concerned with outdoors, unless I have supplied out there, I will advise the client if they have no RCD protection and they intend to use appliances outside then they need to have some form of RCD protection be it at fuseboard, socket or plug.

Id suggest you code it as a 2, if anything happens it will be your A**e on the line.

Indoors if its likely to become live it should be bonded, if it's all plastic then no need, again each job is different to the next.

If its extraneous, you bond it.

Is the RCD secondary protection or primary, all makes a difference.

The point is this, you code 1,2,3 based on the latest edition, the touch voltage curve for outside would be L2 as it would be for a bathroom hence the 50V requirement.

So if you code a lack of Main bonding or a bathroom with no Supplementary bonding where its required you would code a 2, as i have pointed out, the risk is higher or equivalent outside than the two instances mentioned.

So if sockets are potentially going to be used for outdoor equipment then if you code the above as a 2 then you must code no RCD as a 2, the potential risk is the same, how can it be a 3.

If you pass that installation and someone receives a fatal electric shock who's going to get the blame, I really don't see retrospect as a defence.The new Regs recognise the risk outdoors and require RCD's, you should know of the increased risk and you need report the risk.

$park

 

[Steve3948]

$park, it's not a risk unless you use the socket for outdoor use, so if you are doing your EICR and you advise that sockets must not be used for outdoor use because there is no RCD protection where sockets could be used for outdoor use, but if they intend to then it needs improvement (code 3)

 

[Manator]

No RCD is and always will be a code C3.

Have a look and you will see that I am correct. No installation should be deemed unsafe simply because it was installed to a previous edition.

Morally? We do have a problem, however we can only advise the client. The main problems that we have within the industry is people are doing these reports and finding C1's in almost every case, I have to date (last 30 or more years) only found a hand full of those. Under the edition that it was installed it was fit for purpose, and safe, the regulations are not retrospective and therefore whilst testing to the new amendments, the results will always be the same regardless of where we are in regards to electrical safety.

One of the posts above mention the vintage car and seatbelts, there is no way a car could be built now with no seatbelts, but no car built previous could be made to have them fitted, its exactly the same with electrical installations.

When people get this mind set, then all EICR's will be completed correctly.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

So say a 1950-60s install has no bonding at all, or bonding to a water pipe only, should be coded a C3 ?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:18 ----------

$park, it's not a risk unless you use the socket for outdoor use, so if you are doing your EICR and you advise that sockets must not be used for outdoor use because there is no RCD protection where sockets could be used for outdoor use, but if they intend to then it needs improvement (code 3)

It should be recorded as a C3 anyhow as the regulations say all socket outlets under 32A must be RCD protected ( unless for dedicated use and labelled accordingly)