New cabling behind wooden door frame

[Badger Cymru]

Hi all,

We've recently had our 1910's property completely rewired. Following the re-plaster, one of the new cables between a wall light and the switch didn't work when connected up. Our electrician 'resolved' this by feeding another new cable through the side of the nearby doorframe to avoid re-chasing and re-plastering the short section. We weren't given a choice - he just did it. He's knocked out two holes in the new plaster on the other side of the wall alongside the door frame (architrave is currently missing) in order to feed a new cable across from the wall light, down the side of the doorframe and back across to the switch.

He reckons it's safe and it has actually already passed the safety test, but my concern is that the cable is in an unexpected place and could easily be caught by an unwittingly-long screw (e.g. by us or a future homeowner). Even though it's RCD protected, it would mean removing architrave to replace the wire if it were caught. He's not listening to any arguments about 'safe zones' and insists that it's fine as it complies with all current regulations. He likens it to cables behind skirting boards underneath sockets/switches but my argument is that cables are expected there, but not behind door frames. He also says that it's not his fault, although it's unclear who's fault he thinks it actually is (seems highly unlikely that the new cable damaged from the outset and the plasterer did any damage to trunked cables).

My impression is that he just simply just doesn't want to make the correction and now just wants his full invoice paid. However, we have held back 5% of full payment as we want this corrected, but is he correct? If not, is there anything additional I can say to him to convince him otherwise? Is there any official statement I can quote to back up my arguments? I've looked already but haven't found anything definitive. Should he be footing the bill for the cost to do this the 'proper' way, including the re-plastering? I really don't want to appear difficult, but it really doesn't feel right that a brand new rewire that removed decades of dodgy wiring, and cost nearly £5k, should contain this sort of oddity.

Thanks in advance.

 

[pewter]

in my experience every plasterer i have ever known or met has done soemthing stupid because they are lazy buggers. I am sick of them not caring for anyone else except themselves and doing there job as quick as possible. If it was mine i would insist it is all uncovered and when it is proved the plasterer has done something stupid i would by giving the customer my bill for wasting my time and to correct the issue.

Last week i returned to a job to discover a plumber had pushed my cables  for downlights and fans out the way to install his pipes. He thought the customer should have the accessories installed in a positions which mean he can install his pipes as quick as possible.

 Makes me mad when thoughtless others disrupt my work.

 

[Badger Cymru]

That's for your thoughts Pewter. Sounds like the electrician might be blaming the plasterer but isn't saying that to us directly.

However, is the modification that the electrician has made acceptable? Cable right behind door frame where hinges will be affixed. A homeowner might legitemly hammer a nail into the frame to hang something. Surely no one would expect that cable to be there in a house that has just been rewired?

 

[binky]

it's not the ideal location, but perfectly acceptable in my opinion. Just have to be careful with the screws. There is nothing in the regs saying you can't do this that I can think of, and I have done this, and run cables behind skirting boards to overcome similar issues in the past. It isn't unusual to have cables behind architrave or around door frames anyway, usually for doorbells and alarms or door entry systems. The secret of using this method is to make sure any other trades are aware of where the cables are - co-operation to avoid mishaps. The alternative would be to channel the wall which would then mean reskimming the whole wall to get a good finish.  Chances are the plasterer has caught the previous cable with the side of his trowel - they are good at that! 

 

[Evans Electric]

Cables in door cases used to be the norm  on rewires  in the past  (  Often find a ring main behind the architrave  to save  on plastering  ) but  when the Welsh Badger has paid  £5000    (Reasonable)  for all new wiring to latest regs  ...in my opinion the sparks should have stuck to the "Safe Zones"    and behind door casings is'nt one of them  . 

Its a "Quick fix"  I'm afraid  ...it used to occur a lot until  around the 15th  /16th editions   when it went the same way as the dreaded  " Borrowed neutral "    

You can probably  live with it Mr Badger ,  withold  the 5%   as he clearly doesn't want to alter it ,  but whatever he says  ...its NOT in a "Safe Zone"   .   We all know where the safe zones are , as should he .    

If he's a registered  Domestic Installer  his assessor wouldn't be too impressed if he spotted that to be honest.        That is the point of the whole scheme .

 

[Andy™]

if its not in a safe zone then its not done to regs. its not immediately dangerous, but it doesnt fully comply. as such, you are right to ask him to do it properly, even if it means chasing the wall and getting it replastered

 

[Rob_the_rich]

I agree with Evans and Andy, but a bit unclear as to the route the cable takes. Is the door between the switch and the light? And the sparky went across, up, over and down behind the future architrave, then across to the light? How thick is the wall, and how deep did he put it? Pics would be lovely.

 

[binky]

just been checking the safe zones diagrams, from what I can see it doesn't preclude door frames or skirting boards.

 

[Badger Cymru]

Thanks for your comments so far. I have photos, but can't post them here yet as I'm new to the forum. However, I have made a Dropbox link to them here:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vuyu76qsekksqa4/AACtNe8O2b1T-BBotbPM5NO7a?dl=0

In the hall, about 12 inches to the left of the living room door casing, the wall light is directly above the switch. The cable between the two was damaged (somehow). He was able to fish a new wire between the light and the switch by going through the back, i.e. Into the wall from the light, across to the door frame, down the side of the frame from the living room side, then across back to the switch. He presumably didn't do this from the hall side because there is a lot of original wood features in the way. The wall is single skin brick and the wire is right up against the frame in two places.

In the photos, looking from the living room side, so on the right of the door frame, two holes have been made through which the cable fishing was done.

 

[Sharpend]

To be clear? 

Pic 1 is the cable entering into the rear of the switch ......in the living room/hall? 

Pic 2 is the cable down door frame. 

Pic 3 is of both points. 

So where is the light as the cable is going down door frame I'd expect light to be above? 

Can you get a pic from opposite side of wall showing light? 

 

[binky]

not exactly delicatley done!

 

[Badger Cymru]

Not quite Sharpend...

Pic 1: cable coming from wall light on other side of this wall. This cable then goes down door frame to...

...Pic 2: cable going to switch on the side of wall

Pic 3: zoomed out view of both of these

Have also added another photo showing the other side of the wall. This shows the cables for the light and switch. Basically, the defective cable between these on the yellow wall wasn't fixed; the other photos show the fix that was made. And I agree Binky - not delicate!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/vuyu76qsekksqa4/AACtNe8O2b1T-BBotbPM5NO7a?dl=0

 

[Murdoch]

just been checking the safe zones diagrams, from what I can see it doesn't preclude door frames or skirting boards.

Really .... I have to disagree:

Safe zones ..

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/54/cables-in-walls/index.cfm

 

[Sharpend]

Well having now seen the fourth pic, I have to say what's the difference between patching the wall near frame or a strip from switch to light?

poor poor poor is all I can say, given that the house is still in refurb state. A delicate cut with grinder would have given a clean cut, recalls, patch with a couple of coats of quick drying plaster, rub down job done? 

Why would you want to put a cable in an area whereby a fixing is guaranteed to be placed? If the frame fixing doesn't interfere then the architrave is sure to catch it, particularly if the joiner isn't present whilst spark yeehawwww's his work.

Joiners love their Brad nailers.

 

[binky]

Really .... I have to disagree:

Safe zones ..

http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/54/cables-in-walls/index.cfm

so why are there nice blue lines going right to floor and doorway? Also it discusses cables concealed in a wall, doesn't mention cables behind decorative timber - do these form part of a wall or not? Not a mention of these anywhere in the text....... I would agree it isn't the best idea though.

You can also buy this... https://www.hm-online.co.uk/hide-cables-wires-cable-trunking-cable-tidy.php

 

[Doc Hudson]

It is common knowledge that door frames, architrave and skirting boards could probably be fixed with nails or screws, (although some bodge-the-builders just use no-more-nails!). Therefore there is a risk of impact or penetration of the cable, either during installation, or at a later stage when the cable is in use. Wiring regulation 522.6.1 specifically states that wiring will be selected and erected to minimize damage arising from impact, penetration etc, both during installation and after the installation is put into use. The section 522.6.xx as well as including the safe zone designations, also refers to other common issues such as cables though joists being sufficiently deep to avoid penetration by floor nails, Or to have suitable mechanical protection. It all comes under the banner of "external influences" that could damage the cable at any time during its normal working lifespan. Some dangers are impossible to predict but basic common sense suggest you avoid areas that carpenters may go fixings nails or screws, just as you do with avoiding hot central heating pipes, or steam or excessive damp etc. You will not find a specific regulation saying that an unprotected cable may or may not be installed in door frames, but common sense suggest it is a poor choice of route. Personally I would avoid running any cables around doors or horizontally behind skirting board. (It is also a fact that some properties have doorways in the corner of a room whereby one side of the door is also actually classed as a safe zone by the 15cm corner rule. So you cannot say it is not allowed)

However in my opinion there is a more fundamental rule that applies in this instance; The basic buyer-seller or customer-trades person relationship. Fundamental rule of business; as long as the request is economically feasible within a reasonable timescale then "the customer is always right". Any supplier will endeavor to keep good customers happy so as to secure any future business. Now assuming you have been a good customer, not continually hassling or questioning every minor detail of the job then I would have thought the electrician would be more than happy to meet your request.  There is no unreasonable expectation or excessive cost involved with re-chasing a new cable vertically down the wall to the switch. That is the way I personally would have done it. I would just tell him you do not want any cables down around the door frame ask him to remove it and reposition it where you would like it run. It is no different in principal to you deciding where you want your sockets fitted. If a trader puts one in the wrong place, or forgets to install one, then they should put it right to meet your requirements not their convenience.

Doc H.   

 

[Doc Hudson]

so why are there nice blue lines going right to floor and doorway?

The blue lines do not go vertically up the side of the door nor horizontally along the length of the floor. But they do go vertically up the corner between two walls and between wall and ceiling. That is a subtle difference.

Doc H.

 

[Murdoch]

so why are there nice blue lines going right to floor and doorway? Also it discusses cables concealed in a wall, doesn't mention cables behind decorative timber - do these form part of a wall or not? Not a mention of these anywhere in the text....... I would agree it isn't the best idea though.

You can also buy this... https://www.hm-online.co.uk/hide-cables-wires-cable-trunking-cable-tidy.php

Your post suggested that that running horizontally behind skirting boards was ok..... Which is what I disagreed with.

if an accessory has its cable running vertically down, then obviously it has to pass vertically behind said skirting board. This is what the IET diagram shows ....

 

[Rob_the_rich]

That all looks like first fix to me. Is he coming back to put on the switches etc? I don't understand how he has been paid 95% of the 5K and the job is not finished or apparently even tested (none of the cores have been exposed, I haven't a clue what "safety tests" have been done. Unless he snipped the exposed cores off after testing).

I am a bit concerned about the fixing of the light to the wall, it seems like 5 cables are in the "safe zone" directly above the switch, roughly where the screws will go. I think that because 5 cables are there, he didn't want to dig the dodgy one out and possibly cause more damage.

The wall does look pretty thick. So the cable behind the door frame could well be >50mm from the surface of the wall. But it is definitely not 50mm from the surface of the doorframe. And if it is in the middle of the frame, that is right where the door stop will be nailed/screwed. Agreed, poor.

 

[Badger Cymru]

To clarify: the final photo of the light and switch cables was from before the second fix was attempted. All the fittings have now been installed and tested. I think you're right Rob, that because there are lots of other cables going to that switch, it was too much hassle for him to correct the dodgy one.

Murdoch, I completely understand how one might find cables behind skirting where a socket is present, but this cable goes off in a random direction.

Doc, I think you hit the nail on the head (excuse pun) with the statement about "common sense". This is what this may boil down to but myself and the electrician have differing views on what common sense would say, therefore we will always disagree.