None Selv fan in zone 1 c2 or c1

[binky]

Been a requirement for a few years now, basically so you can isolate timer fans ie live, neutral and sw-live to do maintenance work on the fan without turning the lights off. Given that a lot of modern properties have 'internal' bathrooms with no natural daylight, it is extremely useful to be able to keep light on. Saves all that peeing around with torches.

 

[Technician]

Needs only to be 2 pole if a TT system.

I cannot imagine why the protective

conductor should be disconnected.

 

[col]

I've been putting the bathroom light feed through a 3amp FCU (outside room) then T&E from the switch to a 3-pole outside the door then up to the fan in 3-core.

Would really like to know if I'm doing it the hard way? :|

 

[Nicky Tesla]

C1 or C2......neither C3 (plastic fan suitably ip rated) This was allowed in the old days

But an isolator in Z1 ....C2

 

[Ash]

in the part p guide that looks like the on-site guide there's a lovely picture of an IP rated 230V fan sitting just above the shower head.

 

[bryanh]

I've been putting the bathroom light feed through a 3amp FCU (outside room) then T&E from the switch to a 3-pole outside the door then up to the fan in 3-core.

Would really like to know if I'm doing it the hard way?

You are correct in fitting a switch fuse outside of the bathroom as all fan makers ask for a 3amp fuse to protect the fan, and as the fan is normally switched on by the bath light then the lighting circuit is fed from the same switch fuse, now if you want a 3pole isolator so the light can be on when the fan is isolated then it can be fitted as well

Needs only to be 2 pole if a TT system.

I cannot imagine why the protective

conductor should be disconnected.

if the fan has no over run then yes a 2 pole is all you need, but normally its 3pole to isolate the feed and switch wire yes ?

 

[Doc Hudson]

You are correct in fitting a switch fuse outside of the bathroom as all fan makers ask for a 3amp fuse to protect the fan,

We had a thread discussing this topic not very long ago on the forum. You are incorrect stating the all fan makers ask for 3amp fuses to be installed. Many do not, and in a lot of cases the 5A or 6A lighting circuit fuse / MCB provides adequate protection to the fan. However on some lighting circuits supplied by 10A protective devices then additional local fusing for the fan may be required. Consider how much actual current needs to be drawn to blow a 3A BS1362 fuse? Would you actually get adequate discrimination with an upstream 5A BS3036 or 6A BSEN60898?

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

in the part p guide that looks like the on-site guide there's a lovely picture of an IP rated 230V fan sitting just above the shower head.

Indeed, ventilation equipment can be installed in zone 1 providing it is fixed, permanently connected and suitable for that zone according to manufactures instruction. Rather like an electric shower; fixed, permanently connected and suitable for the zone. These are not really difficult concepts to understand for any competent person I would have thought?

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Harsh.........the guy may not be as good as yourself but no need to be like that, thought this was supposed to be a community where we help each other to improve, maybe all you needed to say was read special locations in 7671 and you will find the answer you are looking for.

From reading your posts on this thread I cannot see anywhere that you have attempted to answer the OP's question yourself?. Rather you have persisted in moaning about how others have replied. If as you say, you thought the forum was here to help people, then perhaps you could start by concentrating on the topic in hand, Not on your opinions of how others answer questions.

Just to put things into electrical context, rather than the inappropriate driving school analogy: It could be considered a little remiss for someone to go and install a new socket without taking any cable, socket, back box, tools or test meter. In the same way it is just as remiss for anyone to go and undertake a Periodic inspection without taking suitable test equipment, paper or electronic certificates to record their results, suitable reference material for the unknown things that they uncover whilst doing the inspection. e.g. BS7671, On Site Guide, Guidance Note3, Approved document P, Best practice guide 4 or any other industry recognised publications.

The forum is good, but to attend a site assuming you will be able to access the forum for your answers with no reference material yourself is not the sign of a competent electrician. Especially if the question in hand is toward the more basic end of the spectrum. Ashley has admitted that he failed to take his books with him, Hopefully in future he will go correctly equipped to undertake the work he is asked to do.

Doc H.

 

[Doc Hudson]

Third - competency, am I competent... If I wasn't "competent" then my company wouldn't be sending me to do EICR's,

("Competent"??? - Who defines this, the veteran 30+ years spark, an assessor, MR NICEIC/NAPIT blah blah, GOD [Please let me know])

Unfortunately across the whole business spectrum, employees have been and no doubt still do, sending untrained, unskilled, incompetent persons to perform all sorts of task. Typically to achieve cost-cutting to boost profit margins. A browse through legal archives will unveil numerous instances of businesses being prosecuted due to negligence and incompetence of their staff undertaking tasks that are outside of their abilities.

As for electrical competence that would be defined by EAWR No 16 "persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury" You can read that in you copy of Memorandum of guidance on the Electricity At Work Regulations. This is a statutory document unlike BS7671. BS7671 does state persons undertaking inspection should have sound knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being inspected and to technical standards. So on the face of it it appears very unlikely any inspector could carry out such works purely form memory without the correct documentation to hand.

Doc H.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Back to the start. i find exactly this scenario a lot. Reading the regs, OSG, guide books, etc this is allowed if the fan is suitably rated & i have never seen a bathroom fan that is not IPX4. The fan does not have to be rcd protected if all the earthing & bonding is up to scratch.

However i really dont like it when you see the fan mm away from an adjustable/flexible hose connected shower head . You could say its not suitable for the use, but then the installer could claim its IPX4. I think its very easy for the water spray to be pointed at the fan from half a meter and for it to get to the circuit board, electronics, motor and for that reason often i will often code this as a C2 & note it as not suitable for the environment. I have also seen humidistat fans with the adjustable switch sticking out the bottom also mm away from a shower.

Its not as black & white as Andy claims & every job is different.

 

[Nicky Tesla]

there is no obligation to upgrade to the latest regs if it passed the regs when fitted

 

[bryanh]

We had a thread discussing this topic not very long ago on the forum. You are incorrect stating the all fan makers ask for 3amp fuses to be installed. Many do not, and in a lot of cases the 5A or 6A lighting circuit fuse / MCB provides adequate protection to the fan. However on some lighting circuits supplied by 10A protective devices then additional local fusing for the fan may be required. Consider how much actual current needs to be drawn to blow a 3A BS1362 fuse? Would you actually get adequate discrimination with an upstream 5A BS3036 or 6A BSEN60898?

Doc H.

Most of the fans we have been fitting lately state a fuse of a given size should be fitted, I stand corrected if stating 5amp was seen to be the norm but as a rule we tend to install 10amp lighting circuits in the type of installations we install in (large homes etc),

I will also say that if the manu's say you should do this or fit that, then you should comply as if anything was to go wrong then it will be your fault for not following the instructions, we never fitted fuses on fans until we saw a story about a house fire being caused because a fuse wasnt connected to a extract fan and the manus blamed the sparky for not fitting a fuse as they maintain it would have blown and saved the house fire ?

 

[Steve3948]

Most of the fans we have been fitting lately state a fuse of a given size should be fitted, I stand corrected if stating 5amp was seen to be the norm but as a rule we tend to install 10amp lighting circuits in the type of installations we install in (large homes etc),

I will also say that if the manu's say you should do this or fit that, then you should comply as if anything was to go wrong then it will be your fault for not following the instructions, we never fitted fuses on fans until we saw a story about a house fire being caused because a fuse wasnt connected to a extract fan and the manus blamed the sparky for not fitting a fuse as they maintain it would have blown and saved the house fire ?

As Doc said this was debated at length, Fan manufacturers for instance Vent Axia now state should be fused at 3A if not a lighting circuit, Greenwood Airvac also.

 

[Nicky Tesla]

it would be nice if they incorporated a built in fuse holder

 

[Sharpend]

Now you're asking manu's to be considerate or responsible for their own products. That's pushing the boat out a bit. I'd have thought that if it needed a fuse fitting to operate within its design parameters then them not fitting one would make it not fit for purpose under the sale of goods act. That's like saying a train won't run if you don't clear the leaves.................................... No that's been used before bad example!

 

[steptoe]

it would be nice if they incorporated a built in fuse holder

scoobed for that nicky,

simply because its stating the frickin obvious that Ive never even considered before! headbang

back to OP, it is a very grey area for me too, if in zone 1 I prefer an ELV, but thats only a preference, if manu says its ok then who am I too argue, Ive complied with 7671 by following manu instructions!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

it would be nice if they incorporated a built in fuse holder

There used to be some dimmer switches with built in miniature cartridge fuses.....

Also some of those light switch replacement dusk-dawn controllers have built in miniature cartridge fuses. ..

So it cannot be beyond the realms of feasibility to incorporate fuses into fans that need them.

I cannot see that it would add excessive cost to a fan. :C

 

[col]

If the manu's are listening (optimistic I know) I'd happily pay a few quid more if it saved faffin about with an fcu.

Not the prettiest things to put outside an en-suite either.

I think it'd be a big market advantage for the first one to do it.

 

[bryanh]

wasnt that long a go that every flu and other light fittings had a fuse built in, who fits them nowadays ? now its a lot harder to fault find when one of 20 or so flus on a circuit has afault grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr lol