Outside lights, controlled via PIR with override switch & timer?

[Murdoch]

Mmmm, well I don’t quite see how this can be read any different…….
“Timer; can over ride PIRs and Switch for eg hour in the morning/hour in evening for our commutes....also gives us a way of 'forcing them on' for long periods”
Not to worry, maybe I’m off in a parallel universe in my world as you said

Timer forcing them on for long periods

That’s odd to say the least as it means changing the timer …….

Sounds a bit over complicated if you ask me

 

[johnb2713]

Timer forcing them on for long periods

That’s odd to say the least as it means changing the timer …….

Sounds a bit over complicated if you ask me

It does sound a bit of an odd setup, especially with very low energy LED lighting, but, if it’s what the customer wants ……..

 

[Murdoch]

Mmmm, well I don’t quite see how this can be read any different…….
“Timer; can over ride PIRs and Switch for eg hour in the morning/hour in evening for our commutes....also gives us a way of 'forcing them on' for long periods”
Not to worry, maybe I’m off in a parallel universe in my world as you said

Post # 10 ?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Thank you all, Electrician is a good guy but its a very complicated 4 way switch control..... {edit snip!}

I am hopefully the 3 core from the mains witch to the utility room is sufficient to enable this? As the house is otherwise finished.....?

If starting from scratch with a blank canvas I honestly cannot see how any combination of lighting control could ever be considered "Very Complicated" for a competent qualified tradesperson ???

The ONLY time lighting control gets a tad difficult is if cables have already been installed by someone who has not designed the wiring to accommodate the actual real-world switching requirements....

Without an accurate layout drawing showing the relative positions of all lights, switching devices, power supply and types of cables connected to each and every device, it can be a bit difficult to second guess an accurate solution that will exactly meet all of your requirements..

There is the old phrase... "You can't teach your grannie to suck eggs"....
And it is possible that your electrician is well aware of limitations that are not evident from your posts?

So I would say beware of trying to tell your electrician how to do their job after googling internet guidance.. You could end up creating a bad working atmosphere that they may choose to walk away from!

 

[kerching]

Bearing in mind I'm fairly new to this electrickery malarkey , in my opinion
You can't have too many wires
You can't have a backbox that's too deep

And some other stuff

 

[Andeh1]

Thank you for the continued help...I have made it complex, but when it is your 'forever home' (a new build) I have thought long & hard about how things can work to cover as many eventualities as possible.

It is indeed having the timer and switch/PIR working independent of each other. So the timer controlling it for a manual on & off periods during the day (for our normal commute in Winter)...then ALSO having the option of PIR controlling it separately (but with the option of disabling it) for out of hours use in Winter. Then the ability to turn 'off' the timer and turn 'off' the PIR for when we are on holiday/summer....or a combination of all of the above.

The PIR/switch combo is in place and working as we want it, I am just asking for the Electrician to insert the timer function as per John's sketch.

Our electrician captured requirements, installed wiring & billed us for it (incl the installation of a timer alongside PIR + Switch, detailed in quote). It was his suggestion another Electrician might have ideas on how to get it to work that had me excersising this option to seek a 'fresh eyes' approach vi this forum.

 

[johnb2713]

Thank you for the continued help...I have made it complex, but when it is your 'forever home' (a new build) I have thought long & hard about how things can work to cover as many eventualities as possible.

It is indeed having the timer and switch/PIR working independent of each other. So the timer controlling it for a manual on & off periods during the day (for our normal commute in Winter)...then ALSO having the option of PIR controlling it separately (but with the option of disabling it) for out of hours use in Winter. Then the ability to turn 'off' the timer and turn 'off' the PIR for when we are on holiday/summer....or a combination of all of the above.

The PIR/switch combo is in place and working as we want it, I am just asking for the Electrician to insert the timer function as per John's sketch.

Our electrician captured requirements, installed wiring & billed us for it (incl the installation of a timer alongside PIR + Switch, detailed in quote). It was his suggestion another Electrician might have ideas on how to get it to work that had me excersising this option to seek a 'fresh eyes' approach vi this forum.

Andrew, you have the system however you want, youve obviously sussed out what you want it to do and I for one am more than happy to offer help etc.

Hope your sparky gets it sorted.

J

 

[Andeh1]

Electrician continues to question things, but for my idiots proof response to him, I presume the below would work fine?

PIR can be turned on/off via switch to enable/disable it controlling lights

Timer can be turned on/off via switch to enable/disable it controlling lights

If both are turned on then timer will turn lights on & off when required...and if off....the PIR would turn the lights on & off when motion detected.

If both are turned off....nothing turns lights on?

Many thanks all!

 

[johnb2713]

Electrician continues to question things, but for my idiots proof response to him, I presume the below would work fine?

PIR can be turned on/off via switch to enable/disable it controlling lights

Timer can be turned on/off via switch to enable/disable it controlling lights

If both are turned on then timer will turn lights on & off when required...and if off....the PIR would turn the lights on & off when motion detected.

If both are turned off....nothing turns lights on?

Many thanks all!

Not quite right, you show the timer 'coil' i.e. the timer being powered from the switch, the coil should be directly across L and N to keep it powered but the contacts placed in your drawing where you have shown the timer coil.

 

[Andeh1]

Sorry John, my electrician is claiming the previous diagram you kindly shared doesn't make sense to him '' & his mate agreed ''. He is using this with my builder (contracted) to complicate/avoid the timer installation..... for reasons I have no idea of! Builder has repeatedly shown himself to be a fair & reasonable bloke, but I think he is just siding with electrician for simplicities sake.

Is there any chance you could combine my drawing & your drawing, so I can send it back to him/my builder? Just in the most painfully obvious way possible?

Thank you very much in advance - i am very grateful!

 

[johnb2713]

Sorry John, my electrician is claiming the previous diagram you kindly shared doesn't make sense to him '' & his mate agreed ''. He is using this with my builder (contracted) to complicate/avoid the timer installation..... for reasons I have no idea of! Builder has repeatedly shown himself to be a fair & reasonable bloke, but I think he is just siding with electrician for simplicities sake.

Is there any chance you could combine my drawing & your drawing, so I can send it back to him/my builder? Just in the most painfully obvious way possible?

Thank you very much in advance - i am very grateful!

I would be getting worried about his capabilities!

Here you go, if he'd like me to talk him through it I can do that

 

[Andeh1]

Thank you so much John!!...so just so i can layman's explain it to my builder, the T with the circle in it in line with the L & N.... can you provide me an idiots guide to that?

That's to power the timer to keep it 'permanent live'.....then the timer when 'on' powers the in line timer switch? (Hence the dotted line you applied to your previous drawing?)

 

[johnb2713]

Thank you so much John!!...so just so i can layman's explain it to my builder, the T with the circle in it in line with the L & N.... can you provide me an idiots guide to that?

That's to power the timer to keep it 'permanent live'.....then the timer when 'on' powers the in line timer switch? (Hence the dotted line you applied to your previous drawing?)

Correct the T is the timer supply which keeps the clock going etc, the contacts are further along the drawing and close at the set times etc. I should have put a dotted line between the 'T' and the timer contacts.

 

[kerching]

Could it be that this "electrician" hasn't put enough wires in?
Just a thought

 

[Andeh1]

Thank you very much again john!

There are 2 x 3 core going to the timer install location (next to fuse box), which I am lead to believe connect back to the switches which currently control the lights... but he is being so obtuse over it all I can't get my head around it.... The chapter & verse spoon feeding is to try and tease it out. Thank you John & rest of the posters for help.

I will update the thread when I know more!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I would be getting worried about his capabilities!

Could it be that this "electrician" hasn't put enough wires in?
Just a thought

Working out how to connect a few wires to make any combination of lights work in a specific way is so fundamentally basic.....???

I do tend tend to drift toward Kerching's train of thought...
Someone has failed to install sufficient cables!!!

 

[johnb2713]

Working out how to connect a few wires to make any combination of lights work in a specific way is so fundamentally basic.....???

Maybe he's doing 'Bullsh1t baffles brains' modus operandi?

I do tend tend to drift toward Kerching's train of thought...
Someone has failed to install sufficient cables!!!

The OP states there are 2 x 3 core going to the location which should do it.

 

[mort2376]

Or enough cables installed, but possibly one now damaged hence the builder siding with the "electrician??

 

[kerching]

The OP states there are 2 x 3 core going to the location which should do it.


I know that
You know that
We know that
However I feel the 'electrician', may be a 2.5 ring/1.5 lights kinda guy

 

[Murdoch]

ever get the feeling we're not being told the whole story?

photo's would be useful.