Part P Nightmare

[Ste.tomo]

Hello the forum, any help provided will be greatly appreciated.

My father had an extension built around 10 years ago ish and all went well. The building inspector came to see the electrics before the walls where plastered and said they was ok and left, then the extension was finished. No dramas.

Fast forward to today.... My parents want to sell their house and have just discovered that no part p or new installation certificate was submitted to the council and this is where the problems start.

They had a periodic inspection done and got the cert but not having the original new installation cert is causing problems with selling the house. We don't know much about what a builder or electrician must do to complete a build but there's the trust that a highly recommended builder would ensure all the sub contractors he uses would finish up all the paperwork and so on.

The builder says it's nothing to do with him and the electrician is saying that it was up to the builder to sign off the building and that the electrician should have been paid more to do the certificate. We have an electrician that is registered to the niceic and he has carried out a full inspection of the house and filled out loads of papers to say its safe but the council won't hear any of it because it's not an original new installation cert, but what can we do if the original electrician refuses to sign it off? I wonder if he was registered at all to do the work in the first place.

Turns out, the guy who recommended the builder to us also found this to be the case with his extension but as he isn't planning on selling his house he isn't to worried.

The council don't seem to have any advice for us and I can't find any info inline to rectify this problem, I can't imagine this being an isolated case, there must be thousands of people this has happened to.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[revjames]

you say 10 years ago. Part P only came into force in 2006. I don't see why you cant have a periodic test of the whole house done. As long as the building work has planning permission and is up to building regs I don't see how it could affect the sale. If the house passes a survey whats the problem?

 

[Ste.tomo]

As far as we know, the actual extension needs to be signed of or approved or whatever by the councils building inspector, the building inspector won't sign the extension as meeting regulations until he has this certificate from the electrician.

I'm sorry if I'm not making complete sense but this is all pretty new to me, please be patient.

 

[revjames]

so we can assume then that the work was done after Jan 2006? so you would need another spark to sign it off (good luck with that) or lean on the original one who did the work - might be worth paying him if it gets the paperwork done.

 

[Andy™]

need dates... if it was pre 2006, then part p wouldnt apply. you should still have received an electrical installation cert or possibly minor works cert regardless of date though

if it was 2006 onwards, then if the planning permission included electrical then its upto building control to sort out

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Basic principals of any major transaction such as building works..

1/ Get a written agreement with the various persons doing work so you know who is responsible for what...

Did you have any written agreements/contracts for the work... 

go back and re-read exactly what the builder / electrician had agreed to do!

2/ Part P building regulations came into effect 1 January 2005...

When was your work actually started / completed ..??

Work prior to this date did not need a Building regulations compliance certificate...

3/ Electrical certificate...

Irrespective of Part-P..  ALL ELECTRICAL ALTERATIONS should have an electrical test certificate issued to confirm the work is safe and complies with BS7671 wiring regulations..

This has been a requirement for donkeys years..

either your builder or electrician should have ensured this was issued ... 

(unless they of course were a bodgit & scarper cowboy outfit!)

4/ As a general rule electrical contractors will keep copies of certificates they issue for a few years...

BUT they have no obligation to keep copies for ever...  if its 10 years ago, even if they had issued a certificate they would probably not have copies now???

5/ The only people who can properly answer your question are your council building control...

They are the ones who have to power to sign off or reject the job...

In the case of unauthorised physical structures the council do have powers to have work demolished and/or re-done if they consider it is not compliant with their regulations...! 

I think if they were really nit-picky they could insist it was all pulled out and rewired-tested & certified again!

7/ You are correct this is a common problem with rouge builders / electricians and contractors who do not issue correct paperwork or certificates...

Often because they are either not qualified or competent to actually do the correct testing... 

It is also often because the person ordering the work has accepted the cheapest quote!

General the homeowner ends up picking up the tab!

I don't think anyone on hear can actual give any magic solutions to your problem...

You need to negotiate with your council / builder / electrician..

Probably best done in writing so you have hard copy evidence to pursue a solution.

:coffee

 

[Murdoch]

Your parents need to communicate with the LABC in writing so that the response is given in writing.

If the extension pre-dates 2006 then any reference to part P is irrelevent.

And they need to raise this with their Solicitor and see what they say............

Where are you based?

 

[ProDave]

I'm still unclear what documentation you actually have.

Do you have a "completion certificate" from your local council for the building work?  If not you need to ask them EXACTLY what they need in order to issue that.

Do you have an "Electrical installation certificate" (EIC)?  this should be issued by the electrician doing the work. this is nothing to do with part P and has been a requirement for some time. Normally (even before part P and where part P still does not apply) the building inspector will require a copy of this before he will issue the building completion certificate.

Par P is something extra that only applies after 2006 and then not in all parts of the UK. When EXACTLY was the work done?

your location (at least which country in the UK) would also help.

 

[Evans Electric]

Why are the council being so obstructive ?   Do they expect your parents to live there forever because the extension electrics are not passed off?

Looking back at your opening post  It reads that the extension was not signed off under Building control ..the reason being , there was no Part P cert for the electrics .  This is the fault of the builder in my opinion , who is the Main Contractor and is responsible for such things as Gas certs by Gas Safe contractors and electrics by Competent Persons . 

If thats the case then , yes , it can cause great problems when selling the house ,  a solicitor looks at it and thinks , there,s an extension not signed off under Building Control...how do we know its built to Building regs ?    How do we know the electrics are safe ?   How do we know that gas heater is safe?  etc.   

There are many people in the same situation.  I have carried out EICR   ( Condition Reports ,formerly PIRs)  on jobs not passed off which has been acceptable by the council in this area  (Birmingham)   ( Well just twice actually)

You must insist ,via your MP if necessary, that the council stop being obstructive towards one of their fellow citizens.

Also check that Part P was not in force at the time of the build . So before Jan 2005  as Specs says.

 

[Murdoch]

We can speculate as much as we want but unless the OP lists clearly, what LABC are unhappy about we are simply pxssing in the wind

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Looking back at your opening post  It reads that the extension was not signed off under Building control ..the reason being , there was no Part P cert for the electrics .  This is the fault of the builder in my opinion , who is the Main Contractor and is responsible for such things as Gas certs by Gas Safe contractors and electrics by Competent Persons . 

Whilst builders and contractors have a responsibility to ensure their work complies with building regualtions...

Ultimately it is the property own who has the responsibility to ensure regulations are followed and final documents issued / signed off...

As it is the homeowner who gets any fines that are due for non-compliance.. NOT the contractors!!!

Remember DIY building and electrical and plumbing work is legal and permitted in this country...

So any DIY bod can submit plans, arrange LABC to inspect at whatever stages they deem appropriate then get LABC to sign off the work at the end...

NO contractors involved at all...

So any contractor could as a line of defense say they were not asked or contacted to do the issuing of compliance certs bit...

This is where as i said earlier a written agreement / contract of who is doing what would make clear exactly where responsibilities start / end!

 

[Ste.tomo]

Hi all, I am the home owner we live in Skelmersdale, West Lancashire. We got planning permission granted for a two storey extension at the back of the house the builder employed was recommended and we seen two of his previous works and work was commenced in the first week of Jan, 2006 and finished about middle of April 2006. The contract was to pay in instalments for the work with his guaranteeing to sort every thing out from start to finish and this was done with the building regs chap coming out viewing and ordering extra work such as drain away for the rainwater to separate from the waste water . I am not exactly sure how many times they came out but defiantly more than 3 times. We clearly remember the additional alterations requests from building chap. Leap forward to 2012 and we were going to Sell the house and it was brought to our attention if we had had the house '"signed off" A check with the building inspector found they had received the Certificate for Gas work ( Corgi registered landlord/home owner Gas safety record) but no certificate for the Electrical work. Building inspector came out and was happy with the extension but could not "sign off the work" as no he had not received the certificate for the Electrical work. He advised we get it checked out so we did and got a domestic electrical installation certificate ( NICEIC, domestic installer, Trust mark, good trader scheme. The whole house checked, fuse box upgraded, sockets, wiring checked in plug sockets, earth straps etc). The building inspector says this is still not good enough. Present day, what else do we have to do to have the house sighed off, is there a procedure we have to go thought for this. What I can not understand is the building inspector seen the wiring in the extension and agreed the work can continue e.g plaster boarding and can see the new safety certificate the new Electrician insists NICEIC agree with him that this is what is required for the work to be signed off but we keep hitting a brick wall has the building inspector got a duty to help us ! . This is long winded but need to put in chronological order what happened to date so please if any advise to end it all is greatly appreciated

 

[Andy™]

the other sparky could not have given you an electrical installation certificate, unless he done the work. you may have an electrical installation condition report which is completely different

do you still have a copy of the planning permission from when the work was done? if so check and see if the electrical is included with it or not. if it is, then its upto LABC to sign it off, and they are responsibly for I&T of it. if not, then you need to speak to LABC to find out exactly what they require, but if it i an EIC, then only the original sparky could give you that

 

[pewter]

The building inspector is been an arse.

I have dealt with this problem before, and did the same as Evans (ultimate spark of the universe).

Other authorities will accept an EICR in a situation like this. I think the building control chap does not fully understand what it all  the different certs mean and what he can do.

If i wired up an extension and i died/ run off before i notified building control. Expecting it all to be ripped out and redone so they can have an EIC instead of an EICR by another spark is a bit excessive.

 

[Evans Electric]

Whilst builders and contractors have a responsibility to ensure their work complies with building regualtions...

Ultimately it is the property own who has the responsibility to ensure regulations are followed and final documents issued / signed off...

As it is the homeowner who gets any fines that are due for non-compliance.. NOT the contractors!!!

Remember DIY building and electrical and plumbing work is legal and permitted in this country...

So any DIY bod can submit plans, arrange LABC to inspect at whatever stages they deem appropriate then get LABC to sign off the work at the end...

NO contractors involved at all...

So any contractor could as a line of defense say they were not asked or contacted to do the issuing of compliance certs bit...

This is where as i said earlier a written agreement / contract of who is doing what would make clear exactly where responsibilities start / end!

Yes I stand corrected there Specs ,   the homeowner has ultimate responsibility , I'd forgotten that .     So again the building fraternity get away scott free of any responsibility  when really he should be the one guiding the owner ...in place of , say a project manager.

So reading Ste.Tomo's last post  its still down to the LBC  to explain what the hell they want they require .

Fact.   

Owner cannot get the original electrician to notify his work . ( From that we presume he is not registered with a scheme )

So that is not going to happen.

Fact.

The owner has called in an NICEIC sparks who has done all he can do, by carrying out an EICR .

An original Installation Cert will NOT be forthcoming so the LBC should accept the EICR as there is NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE  in my understanding .

The LBC have obviously become Jobsworths and should getting their fat arseholes and sorting this out !!  Why didn't they contact the owners at the time of building  to point out this problem . 

I would be contacting my local councillor first & if he can't be bothered , my local MP & the local paper.

The reason I said the builder should have sorted it is the builder I do much work for usually works under Building Control , meaning the Architect is in charge...builder submitts all Gas / elect / stress calcs / etc etc and Architect applies for final sign off .  

 

[Murdoch]

All the op can do is write to labs and clarify the situation the go from three.

As I previously suggested you should also consult your solicitor as there are legal ways to resolve this too

 

[Evans Electric]

Good point by Pewter ...as he said he could have died ...or run off to spend his days with Jennifer Aniston on a desert island..... so what action does LBC take ?  

The only answer is to send in another electrician to do an EICR .

 

[ProDave]

Talk to your solicitor. you may be able to resolve it by purchasing an indemnity insurance for a one off fee.  I had to do that when I sold my last house as there was an apparent breach of a covenant that the buyers solicitor noticed. So I think it was £250 for the policy which would fight a claim under the covenant if one ever occurred.

As a footnote, I know it does not help you, but to anyone reading this thread, you need to keep on top of things at the time the work is done.  It is VITAL that you make the builders last stage payment conditional on getting the completion certificate from your building control. that will ensure the builder (and his subcontractors) complete everything to the satisfaction of the inspector, and you don;t hane over the final payment until you have that completion certificate.

You should have chased up the completion certificate as soon as the work was done, not several years later.

 

[Ste.tomo]

Firstly, thanks for all the feedback, you have all greatly helped us understand the situation a lot better than we did before.

I think our next step is to contact the LABC team officer instead of the guy we have been dealing with and explain the situation to the boss, our electrician will be able to issue a new EICR for us.

It does seem a bit like the building control chap we are dealing with doesn't understand that these things happen, there's no chance of getting the original guy back so there has to be provisions in place for these cases, hopefully the chaps boss will see this and help us out.

Once again, thanks for all your time.

 

[Doc Hudson]

You do need to be clear about the difference between an electrical certificate and a condition report:

When any new circuits are installed an "Electrical Installation Certificate" (EIC) should be issued. This has a signed declaration for design, install and testing of the installation, stating compliance with wiring regulations. It covers all aspects of the new circuits.  This is the certificate that the LABC would normally need to see to sign off the work. It has to be signed by the person(s) who have designed, installed and tested the work.

Whereas an "Electrical Installation Condition Report" (EICR) is just a report on the condition of the installation based upon a random sample evaluation of parts of the circuits. It is not a certificate and it does not cover areas that are no longer accessible. (buried cables etc.) This is the only report that can legitimately be done now by contractors who were not involved in the original work. 

Wiring regulations and the format of certificates and reports change over time. The current forms are different to the ones that would have been issued in 2006. I doubt any competent electrician would issue an EIC for this work now.

Doc H.