Plastic speedfit, plumbers and the problems of earth bond continuity...

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

The plumber installing our new shower room has made extensive use of plastic speedfit elbows. This is not a problem in the loft or airing cupboard, where I can bond across from the old pipework to the new, and to the top of the shower tails in the loft.

BUT he has also used one on a tail for the metal towel radiator, and for one of the sink tails. Both rise through the floor, and the plastic elbows in question are under the floor (soon to be tiled over, hopefully forever). The towel radiator should not a problem as long as one tail has continuity, but one of the sink tails will not have any unless I cross-bond it to it's neighbour... :|

When I questioned him on the fact that these joints could break earth continuity, he replied "the electrician I use just bonds in the airing cupboard these days".

Am I overreacting or talking crap, or is there a real risk that the LABC will fail the new installations because of this? The plumber is a professional with a good reputation, so it makes me think that if there had been previous issues with an installation done in this way he would be well aware of it and able to now work to the regulations...

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

Just been reading a bit more and it seems that as long as the circuits are RCD protected then there is no need for the pipes to be bonded anyway, under 17th Ed?

Wouldn't it be preferable to still have earth continuity through the supply pipes, even if it's not strictly necessary?

Never been sure about this Speedfit stuff anyway to be honest, it just seems like a quick, lazy temporary installation to me...

 

[Apache]

Just been reading a bit more and it seems that as long as the circuits are RCD protected then there is no need for the pipes to be bonded anyway, under 17th Ed?Wouldn't it be preferable to still have earth continuity through the supply pipes, even if it's not strictly necessary?

Never been sure about this Speedfit stuff anyway to be honest, it just seems like a quick, lazy temporary installation to me...

Pushfit is fine. Has come on a long way. Bit like using Wagos or old fashined JB's!

 

[sparkytim]

If the installation complies with the 17th Edition in that the MAIN bonding at incoming services is to standard, all circuits 30 m A RCD protected and the installation meets the 0.4 sec disconnection time reqiuirement, then supplementery bonding is NOT REQUIRED.

It was one of the better things that came with the 17th,

PS Any one need any 4mm 6491x ?

 

[Theorysparky]

If the the board is 17th Ed or all bathroom ccts are rcd'd make sure you have good continuity readings for your main bonding water,gas etc

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

Thanks all for the clarification.

I did use push fit for the first time recently, due to access problems making fitting solder/compression fittings difficult, and I was impressed to some extent - but I find the fact that you can freely move the fitting round after tightening is quite disconcerting!

 

[a1]

I don't like pushfits on Copper pipes.

@ Sparkytim... I have a load of 100M rolls of the stuff. :_|

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

@ Sparkytim... I have a load of 100M rolls of the stuff. :_|

It could still be used as a single in conduit?

 

[Evans Electric]

About 5 years ago we came upon our first push -fit when , just as we connected the 10mm G/Y to the incoming water, the plumber cut the pipe 2 mts away and put on a plastic push -fit tee, thus negating the purpose of the bond. We strapped across the tee but decided that it would be the first and last time .

Later I phoned the ECA Technical , I was patched through to London ,asked the question "Why are plumbers using plastic fittings and losing the earth continuity on the pipes"

Answer :- " Why are you so bothered , you just fit the 10mm above the stop valve as you are supposed to " I just put the phone down.

One of the reasons why I don't give a $hit anymore.

Some years back the NIC assessor said he was going to a cable conference the next day, to make conversation I said get them to scrap the solid strand 2.5 and go back to stranded.

His reply :- " Why would you think they would listen to the likes of you "

Another reason why I don't give a $hit anymore.

 

[binky]

Beware of pushfit elbows on older installations - I recently got a belt of a short section of pipe under a bath . The installation was on old re-wireable fuses, and customer was complaing of 'banging noise' from under bath. Noise I think was electrical discharge building up and by-passing elbow through water. Electric was coming from old immersion circuit via nail or something used to mount bath frame to wall. Twas all a bit strange but very disconcerting as I had checked all other pipes for voltage before reaching around live pipe to try and have a look in behind bath taps, when I bushed my arm against the short live section bad day explode . Think that smiley about sums it up :^O

 

[paul b b]

Beware of pushfit elbows on older installations - I recently got a belt of a short section of pipe under a bath . The installation was on old re-wireable fuses, and customer was complaing of 'banging noise' from under bath. Noise I think was electrical discharge building up and by-passing elbow through water. Electric was coming from old immersion circuit via nail or something used to mount bath frame to wall. Twas all a bit strange but very disconcerting as I had checked all other pipes for voltage before reaching around live pipe to try and have a look in behind bath taps, when I bushed my arm against the short live section bad day explode . Think that smiley about sums it up :^O

this confuses me in the bonding issue, if you bond at say the immer tank and the pipes are plastic from there on to the taps, would the electric not go down the water to the tap to give you a bang? and how would an rcd stop this?

 

[Apache]

this confuses me in the bonding issue, if you bond at say the immer tank and the pipes are plastic from there on to the taps, would the electric not go down the water to the tap to give you a bang? and how would an rcd stop this?

Water is a poor conductor, but it does conduct (Special Location 2008)

 

[PeatBog]

Surely use of plastic push fit fitting is generally a good thing as it interrupts continuity of the pipes making them NOT extraneous conductive parts and therefore not requiring bonding! We only bond to things that introduce a source of earth from somewhere else don't we?

 

[kme]

Surely use of plastic push fit fitting is generally a good thing as it interrupts continuity of the pipes making them NOT extraneous conductive parts and therefore not requiring bonding! We only bond to things that introduce a source of earth from somewhere else don't we?

Water is a poor conductor, but it does conduct (Special Location 2008)

Perzactly. I think its about time for another "forum experiment". Perhaps this one could be televised (or maybe youtubed?)

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

But, taking my own house as an example (while altering the circumstances slightly to fit) what would happen if the new copper shower feed pipes, which are now completely separate from the rest of the water system due to the new plastic elbows, were to become live from the very poorly installed extractor fan feed (fortunately long since ripped out by me as soon as I set eyes on it)?

 

[binky]

But, taking my own house as an example (while altering the circumstances slightly to fit) what would happen if the new copper shower feed pipes, which are now completely separate from the rest of the water system due to the new plastic elbows, were to become live from the very poorly installed extractor fan feed (fortunately long since ripped out by me as soon as I set eyes on it)?

Then you could end up with the nasty situation I encountered. Having said that if dodgy fan is on RCD protected circuit it should trip out. Plastic fittings and bonding are a nightmare, which I like dual RCD CUs and elimination of supplementary bonding (in most cases)

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

Then you could end up with the nasty situation I encountered. Having said that if dodgy fan is on RCD protected circuit it should trip out. Plastic fittings and bonding are a nightmare, which I like dual RCD CUs and elimination of supplementary bonding (in most cases)

Bearing in mind that the fan was run from the lighting circuit, isn't it possible that if the criteria were met (or ignored) then even when a new CU was installed the lighting ring could be put on the non-rcd side?

Of course this hypothetical situation relies on the new CU being installed by a complete plank who fails to inspect any of the rest of the installation, but it's still possible...

 

[mikep]

Thought you guys might like this before the arguments begin.

from a book Practical guide to inspection & testing.

 

[AAAMUSEMENTS]

Thought you guys might like this before the arguments begin.

Thanks for that, interesting and confirms what I expected...

Out of interest what is the source of that image?