Position of fire alarm panel

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have looked this up a few times previously but dont think i found a definitive answer. Many times the fire alarm panel (with no repeaters etc) seems to be hidden away in cupboards or behind shop shelving. Other times commercial units layouts get changed so the panel ends up in a toilet or worse. 

I thought it was meant to be visable by an exit. Any views or pointers.

 

[Geoff1946]

I think if you asked the fire service they would say immediately by the main entrance where they can readily view it on arrival.

 

[Ardet R]

BSI code of practice of FD&FA part 1 cites clauses 23.2 of BS5389-1:2013 (superseded by 2017)

23.2.1 The following recommendations are applicable to the siting of CIE.
a) Indicating equipment, in conjunction with suitable manual control facilities, should be sited at an appropriate location for both staff and firefighters responding to a fire signal. This should normally comprise an area on the ground floor close to the entrance to the building likely to be used by the fire and rescue service, or a suitably sited, continuously manned control room from which at least initial control of any fire incident, by staff and/or the fire and rescue service, will be implemented.

 

[Sidewinder]

I have looked this up a few times previously but dont think i found a definitive answer. Many times the fire alarm panel (with no repeaters etc) seems to be hidden away in cupboards or behind shop shelving. Other times commercial units layouts get changed so the panel ends up in a toilet or worse. 

I thought it was meant to be visable by an exit. Any views or pointers.

So the description of poor location is likely to be a breach of law then.

The duty holder under the RRFSO should be prosecuted.

Easy to solve, throw a few in prison & fine the company in accordace with FFI, & they will get the message that people’s lives are worth more than money.

 

[kerching]

I have always put them as near as possible to the entrance AND if possible visible from the outside

just...trying to make it easier

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Just saying............ You will find thousands of fire alarm panels in "The wrong location" as I understand it ultimately it is the fire brigade who you should report things that are wrong to, but as they have little money to spend on such things, no one gets prosecuted or fined. yes its not right, but thats the way it is.

 

[Sidewinder]

Just saying............ You will find thousands of fire alarm panels in "The wrong location" as I understand it ultimately it is the fire brigade who you should report things that are wrong to, but as they have little money to spend on such things, no one gets prosecuted or fined. yes its not right, but thats the way it is.

It is referred to as the normalisation of deviance, and it killed people at Grenfel Tower, those of us who are proud of the quality of our work need to stand up to this and push for things to be done correctly. #e5

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I am not disagreeing with you, I am just saying you are flogging a dead horse. Its not right, but that is how it seems to me.

 

[Sidewinder]

So Richard, whilst not disagreeing, you are suggesting that we should all turn a blind eye to the shoddy and dangerous work that is seen.

I simply will not, and cannot do that.

To do so is simply accepting that dangerous and illegal activities are acceptable.

This is exactly the normalisation of deviance that we should be trying to prevent.

#e5

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

So Richard, you are suggesting that we should all turn a blind eye to the shoddy and dangerous work that is seen.

I neither said or implied that. I merely said I think you are flogging a dead horse.

 

[Tom Forsyth]

There is a lot of talk of illegal practice, dangerous, etc. You have to be careful what words are used. BS-5839 is there as a best practice, a guideline. BS-5839 is not legally enforceable, there is no legal requirement for any one or any company to have a fire alarm. Insurance companies are the main drive for Fire Alarm Installations and maintenances, they say if you don’t have it we won’t insure you. Local Authorities also drive the installation and maintenance of fire alarms, you don’t have it they won’t pass the building as fit for purpose.

However back to the original question, it is best practice to fit the fire panel or a fully functional repeater at the main point of entry for the Fire Brigade so see. 

 

[Sidewinder]

Tom,

Just for clarity.

If you check, I didn't mention any BS's, I quoted the RRFSO, then there is CDM to consider, both of which are law.

If the layout of the building and the design of the fire alarm system increases the danger to persons, then it's likely a breach of law, regardless of what any BS says.

Then there are building regulations, which again are law, and they also, as it happens, guide readers for advice on compliance to the BS's.

As HSE do with their HSR25 document guiding readers to BS 7671 for guidance on meeting the requirements of EAWR.

So, whilst not law, I agree, the BS's would after the breach of law has been established, likely used as an assistant document to add weight to the prosecution, to illustrate how the duty holder failed in their legal responsibilities, and to illustrate that if they had followed the guidance then the situation likely would not have occurred.

So again, until now, I have not mentioned any British Standards, if you look at my first post I cite RRFSO.

I will repeat what I said earlier though.

The normalisation of deviance is not acceptable, and must be challenged to save lives, prevent injury to persons and damage to property.

Just because it's the norm, does not make it right.

Eventually the rules will change.

Just an example, the requirement for resistance of premature collapse of wiring systems has been a requirement since CDM first became law in 2007, however, it won't be fully implemented into BS 7671 until January 1st 2019.

It's only had to be brought into BS 7671 because it was being ignored, and it killed people.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

There is a lot of talk of illegal practice, dangerous, etc. You have to be careful what words are used. BS-5839 is there as a best practice, a guideline. BS-5839 is not legally enforceable, there is no legal requirement for any one or any company to have a fire alarm. Insurance companies are the main drive for Fire Alarm Installations and maintenances, they say if you don’t have it we won’t insure you. Local Authorities also drive the installation and maintenance of fire alarms, you don’t have it they won’t pass the building as fit for purpose.

However back to the original question, it is best practice to fit the fire panel or a fully functional repeater at the main point of entry for the Fire Brigade so see. 

I am glad to see the various response's. Take the scenario of a typical   shop, may be just one zone or possibly two- shop floor and rear of shop, does it matter where the panel is as long as it works . After all else what is it doing other than telling you  it has been activated and the sounders are on  . Of course completely different in a large block etc ?

 

[Tom Forsyth]

Tom,

Just for clarity.

If you check, I didn't mention any BS's, I quoted the RRFSO, then there is CDM to consider, both of which are law.

If the layout of the building and the design of the fire alarm system increases the danger to persons, then it's likely a breach of law, regardless of what any BS says.

Then there are building regulations, which again are law, and they also, as it happens, guide readers for advice on compliance to the BS's.

As HSE do with their HSR25 document guiding readers to BS 7671 for guidance on meeting the requirements of EAWR.

So, whilst not law, I agree, the BS's would after the breach of law has been established, likely used as an assistant document to add weight to the prosecution, to illustrate how the duty holder failed in their legal responsibilities, and to illustrate that if they had followed the guidance then the situation likely would not have occurred.

So again, until now, I have not mentioned any British Standards, if you look at my first post I cite RRFSO.

I will repeat what I said earlier though.

The normalisation of deviance is not acceptable, and must be challenged to save lives, prevent injury to persons and damage to property.

Just because it's the norm, does not make it right.

Eventually the rules will change.

Just an example, the requirement for resistance of premature collapse of wiring systems has been a requirement since CDM first became law in 2007, however, it won't be fully implemented into BS 7671 until January 1st 2019.

It's only had to be brought into BS 7671 because it was being ignored, and it killed people.

Sidewinder

Just to clarify

The original question was quite simple really, if you read it correctly. To summarise it was simply this: -

Any views or  pointers on the location of Fire Alarm Panels

Firstly I answered the question in a way that any one reading it would hopefully be able to understand, a general guideline. That guideline is quite simple, there is no legal requirement to have a fire alarm at present. But employers do have a duty of care to its employees, which may run to requiring a Fire Alarm System. If however you have been instructed to install one, by your insurance company for example, then there are recommended guidelines to follow as laid down in BS5839 to meet certain Grades and levels within that grade, Grade M and L, Levels 4 to 1. The recommendation on the citing of the FiAP or CIE is that they should be placed in a position where they are clearly visible upon entry to the building. However at present it is best practice not a legal requirement. If you installed a *** or CIE in the toilet the Fire Alarm System will still work in just the same way as if it was installed by the main door, but it makes it harder to quickly identify the area of the activation. 

You will find that the rules are trying to be changed in Scotland at present, they are trying to make it a legal requirement for all properties, commercial and domestic, to have at least 2 Smoke Detectors and a CO Detector if you have gas. It does not have to be a full blown Fire Alarm System with a Panel, domestic detectors will do. 

As as far as the rest of your comments go, what exactly does the vast majority of it have to do with the question, which was does any one have any views or pointer on the location of Fire Alarm Panels.

Your house had to pass building regulations but it does not need a fire alarm. Public toilets have to pass building regulations but they do not need a fire alarm either. The premature collapse of cables have nothing to do with where a *** or CIE is recommended to be installed either. (Just for the record BS5839 does recommend that fire resistant materials be used to hold FP Cable in place so as to aid the avoidance of premature collapse).

Finally if you read what I put correctly I never accused you of mentioning BS5839, you have made an incorrect assumption on that point. 

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I asked the original question regarding  existing systems, not on installation.  In many properties  visited to carry out a checkup/service/alteration to the fire alarm  we cant find  the panel or its  fitted in a most obscure place. Recently we found a panel next to the commercial ovens in a bakery, in  a room at the rear of a shop. It had been there  at least 9 years and did not appear to have any heat damage. However my view is it should not be there but its a 2 zone  panel, shop floor  & rear area  does it matter, in the event of a fire  seeing the panel would not help locate the source of alarm.

Another job, a care home has the panel now in a corridor in the middle of the building, due to extensions and alterations, the zoning is  not correct due to fire doors & building alterations etc, some detectors now  100mm from walls, call points behind curtains, no beacons (some people hard of hearing) and more, but whats there works. I have been putting these  comments on my quarterly report  for years, backing it up with emails & a  recorded delivery letter but nothings ever done, the council & fire officer inspected  the home this  week and  accepted  everything  as ok, despite my remarks because  there are staff on duty 24/7.

 

[Tom Forsyth]

SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH

Some sites such as the bakery can be a little different from the norm. Without knowing the site it is hard to say for sure, but bakery staff tend to start work at 3am to prepare and bake their goods in readiness for the front of shop to open up at 9am for example. Therefore the most dangerous place is back of shop where the ovens are, which is where the *** is located. Was the *** near a rear exit door, if so are the ARC staff to notify the Brigade staff to enter the property from the rear door. Is the front of the bakery harder to gain entry to for the Brigade, etc, maybe a shopping mall of pedestrian zone with vehicle bollards in place, etc. On the other hand it could just be a poorly thought out installation, maybe by a person with poor knowledge.

Care Homes normally have higher Grade Systems, you would normally expect them to have been instructed to have an L2 or L1 System. The reason for this Grade is that the people in there may not be particularly swift or nimble on their feet, many could need walking aids, wheel chairs and maybe even bed ridden. There rooms are therefore generally rated as 1 or 3 hour fire cells depending on the requirements they have been instructed to comply with. They will have fire rated doors and door closers virtually throughout the building, to help reduce the spread of a fire. However they should have a correctly commissioned Fire Alarm System, certified by a suitable commissioning engineer. The original system may have met the Grade it was required to at the time it was installed. However after the extensions were built and alterations were made, the fire alarm system will have been altered, additional devices installed, etc. This now means that the Fire Alarm System has to be re-commissioned and certified as it is no longer the grade compliant system that it used to be. That includes repositioning the *** if need be, or alternatively installing a repeater or mimic panel at the new entry point that the Brigade are most likely to use. What you are doing is correct, you must continue to list your observations on you job report sheet on every visit. Sadly you can not enforce your observation and recommendations, only continue to highlight them. Should there be a serious incident at the care home that is fire related, a copy of your reports will be part of the investigation, this will show that you have done the correct thing and it is the carehome who will have to explain why they chose not to react to your observations and recommendations. But after reading some of you observations it would be interesting to know a few things, such as what Grade the system is suppose to meet, which company and who commissioned the system, as although you can enter deviations to the system design and still conform to Grade compliance, I would be surprised if they would get away with not relocating the *** or a CIE at the point of main entry for the Brigade. However they might have taken the cheap and lazy way out and just didn’t bother and signed off the commissioning certification and stated the system as being Grade compliant. If this is the case and there ends up being a serious fire related incident, and due to the poorly located the Brigade were hampered in locating the area of activation, it will be the engineer that signed off the commissioning certificate who is in serious trouble, not the company he works for and not the care home. 

We we must remember that Fire Alarm Systems are there to notify people of a potential fire, They can not miraculously save people by teleporting them to a save location.  The sounders, beacons, pillow vibrators etc, are there to alert people that there is a potential danger somewhere and that they should leave the premises by the deignated Fire / Emergency Escape Routes, or alternatively to alert them to stay in their rooms which once the door has closed has become a fire cell enclosure. So ultimately as long as the output devices are working it is doing its job in helping reduce the possibility of serious injuries to people.